Rian Johnson and Mark Hamill Discuss Spoilers About the Skywalker Twins in The Last Jedi

In a series of articles from Entertainment Weekly, Anthony Breznican talks spoilers with Rian Johnson and some of the cast. In this article, we take a look at what came from his discussion with Johnson and Mark Hamill concerning the Skywalker twins and their story arcs in The Last Jedi.

Warning: If you still haven’t seen the film and are avoiding spoilers, stop now. Otherwise, full steam ahead…

 

The focus of Breznican’s discussion with Johnson and Hamill primarily revolves around the two key moments in the movie concerning Luke and Leia – and if you’ve seen the movie (hopefully you have if you’re still with me – if not what are you thinking?) then you know which two moments in the film I’m talking about. First, let’s take a look at what the director and the last Jedi himself thought about Luke’s death in The Last Jedi

 

Luke Skywalker

 

(quotes from EW):

 

Johnson explains that the decision to have Luke die in the movie was not taken lightly:

 

“I had huge hesitance,” Johnson says of ending one of the most beloved characters in movie history. “I was terrified. It was a growing sense of dread when I realized this was going to make sense in that chapter.”

 

He also talked about how much involvement he had with the folks at Lucasfilm as he was bouncing around story ideas:

 

“It was not like I wrote the script and dropped it on their desk. It was very important to me that I was collaborating with the folks at Lucasfilm from the word go,” he said. “I moved to San Francisco for a few months and would go in a few times a week to keep them up to date, spewing my ideas out, especially the big ones.”

 

 

Mark Hamill expresses his initial concerns and present denial of his character’s demise:

 

 “Well, I’m still in denial,” Hamill joked. “I just think he transported somewhere else.”

“The first thing I said was, ‘Can’t you wait and do this in Episode IX?’”

 

But Johnson clarified that it was necessary for the final chapter in the trilogy to focus on the new characters:

 

“I think the hero’s journey of Luke Skywalker concluded in Return of the Jedi. This [trilogy] is the hero’s journey of Rey, and Finn, and Poe,” Johnson said. “The [ongoing] story of Luke is one that has to play in tandem with that of Rey.”

 

One of the most surprising moments in the movie may have been the third act arrival of Luke on Crait as he takes the First Order on single-handedly. After surviving a direct assault of inescapable fire from the entire First Order and emerging without so much as a singed robe, the bewilderment begins to hit the audience as they ask the question “just how powerful is Luke Skywalker?”. The answer to that question (along with some hindsight explanations) is given when viewers discover that Luke was never even really present on Crait to begin with, but that he was using the Force to project an image of himself on Crait as a distraction to allow the remaining Resistance forces to escape – an act that ultimately cost the Jedi his life in the process.

 

 

On second watch, viewers may notice that there are many hints early on that Luke was never physically present on Crait. For one, Luke never clashes sabers with his nephew, constantly ducking and evading Kylo Ren’s strikes. According to editor Bob Ducsay there are several of these subtle hints in the movie:

 

“Exactly, by design,” editor Bob Ducsay said. “There are many small things that would give you some clues as to what’s going on with Luke. He doesn’t make a sound. Nothing ever falls on him. Kylo’s lightsaber interacts with the salt, and Luke’s doesn’t.”

 

Leia Organa

 

(quotes from EW):

 

Another surprising moment in the film happened when Leia is blown out of her starship along with the other Resistance leaders, only to finally demonstrate just how strong the Force is in her family. In a tragic attack that saw others like Admiral Ackbar meet their end, the story wasn’t over for the General. Floating seemingly lifeless in space for several heartbeats, Leia’s fingers begin to twitch, her eyes open, and the ice built up on her face begins to melt as she reaches out with her innate Force abilities to draw herself back to safety.

 

As much as people love Leia, this seems to be one of the more divisive moments in the movie, with many people arguing the ridiculousness of the scene with others pointing out the beauty and wonder of the moment. Personally, I find myself somewhere in the middle in this debate, loving that Leia used the Force, yet not loving the execution on screen. That being said, love it or hate it, I do want to point out that there is precedence for her survival in the Star Wars canon.

 

 

In the Clone Wars series, there is an episode where Senator Amidala finds herself in a predicament during the battle of Mon Cala where her underwater life support system becomes damaged. Anakin and fellow Jedi Kit Fisto create a “Force orb” around the senator to keep her from drowning. While it could be argued that the two scenarios are very different given that one takes place in water while the other in the vacuum of space, there is another moment where a Force user survived being ejected into space.

 

 

In Star Wars: Rebels, Kanan Jarrus is ejected into the vacuum of space by Maul, but quickly and frantically uses the Force to pull himself back to safety. I read that a human could only survive in a vacuum for about 15 seconds before succumbing due to the lack of oxygen in the blood. My theory is that Leia instinctively created a Force orb around herself (evidenced by her continued survival past this point and the fact that the ice on her face had started to melt) and like Kanan, she began to pull herself toward the ship using the Force. I would have preferred she do so with a more frantic desperation on screen, but in the end, I understand Rian’s decision to have her exude a graceful elegance as she made her way to safety.

 

Lucasfilm President Kathleen Kennedy

 

According to Johnson, it was Lucasfilm head Kathleen Kennedy that pushed the hardest for Leia to tangibly use the Force in the movie:

 

 “She kept asking, ‘Leia’s a Skywalker, Luke gave her this speech in Jedi and told her basically, ‘You have this potential, too.’ It seemed to me it would be a really emotionally impactful thing to see her use it,” the filmmaker said.

 

“I liked the idea it would be an instinctual thing. This would be more like stories you hear about parents of toddlers who get caught under cars and they get Hulk strength and lift the car up,” he said.

 

“It would be something in these final moments to show that she’s not done with the fight. And like a drowning person pulling herself back, that’s how it manifests itself for the first time in her.”

 

 

Concerning Luke’s Force projection on Crait, Mark Hamill suggests that viewers watching the movie for the second time may pick up on a knowing look between Luke and Leia that betrays Leia’s realization that her brother isn’t really there. It was during the moment when Luke hands Leia the dice from the Falcon:

 

“That’s when she knows,” Hamill says.

 

It will be interesting to see how they handle Leia moving forward in the saga, but I think we can rest assured that unless J.J. Abrams (The Force Awakens, Episode IX) has something else in mind, the Jedi Master will be back in the sequel trilogy’s conclusion to offer some more advice to Rey much like Obi-Wan did with Luke in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. Hamill seems to be open to return to the galaxy far far away, and I think I speak for most if not all fans when I say that his presence would be welcomed in Episode IX.

 

Click HERE and HERE to read the full articles from Entertainment Weekly.

 

 

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Jordan Pate is Co-Lead Editor and Senior Writer for Star Wars News Net, of which he is also a member of the book and comic review team. He loves all things Star Wars, but when he's not spending time in the galaxy far far away, he might be found in our own galaxy hanging out in Gotham City or at 1407 Graymalkin Lane, Salem Center, NY.

Jordan Pate (Hard Case)

Jordan Pate is Co-Lead Editor and Senior Writer for Star Wars News Net, of which he is also a member of the book and comic review team. He loves all things Star Wars, but when he's not spending time in the galaxy far far away, he might be found in our own galaxy hanging out in Gotham City or at 1407 Graymalkin Lane, Salem Center, NY.

165 thoughts on “Rian Johnson and Mark Hamill Discuss Spoilers About the Skywalker Twins in The Last Jedi

  • December 18, 2017 at 5:03 pm
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    Wasn’t there an old interview with Hamil where he said he discussed Luke’s role in Ep. 9 with Trevorrow before the latter’s firing ?

    This was well after Rian had begun on Ep. 8.

    My guess is that Luke has always been expected to appear in Ep. 9, regardless of his “demise” in 8.

  • December 18, 2017 at 5:08 pm
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    Not opposed to Leia using the force to save herself. But they could’ve shot it in a less cheesy way. Just do an over the shoulder shot of her going towards the ship with her hand extended. Then cut to her hand reaching the ship door window to alert the crew.

    • December 18, 2017 at 6:55 pm
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      I agree that the problem isn’t the idea, but some of the shots. I loved the scene (and the music was phenomenal), but yes, a couple of shot made it look cheesy.

      Not that there aren’t other cheesy shots in Star Wars history…

      • December 18, 2017 at 10:45 pm
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        Yeah. It is what it is. No movie is perfect.

  • December 18, 2017 at 5:14 pm
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    I kind of hope Luke doesn’t reappear. His story arc and departure were perfect. If he’s watching from a distance cool, but I’m not sure I want him interacting with Rey. However, I won’t complain if we spend more time with Master Skywalker.

    • December 18, 2017 at 5:23 pm
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      I disagree.
      it was most definitely not perfect

      • December 18, 2017 at 5:35 pm
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        I eagerly await your fan fiction that best what Rian Johnson did. I’m sure it will be mind bending.

        • December 18, 2017 at 5:39 pm
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          so Rian Johnson is free from criticism ?

          • December 18, 2017 at 5:52 pm
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            No, he’s not. I have some specific changes I would make to the Canto Bight sequence. You’re critical of Luke’s ending so you must have something better in mind. I for one cannot wait to hear what it is.

          • December 18, 2017 at 6:24 pm
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            It’s not so much the ending.
            It’s the fact that we only got one film with him where he is grump for 95% of it when it seems Luke was to be a major part of the new trilogy. Remember all the early reports prior to TFA ?

  • December 18, 2017 at 5:15 pm
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    “Well, I’m still in denial,” Hamill joked.

    He wasn’t joking, folks.

  • December 18, 2017 at 5:28 pm
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    “The first thing I said was, ‘Can’t you wait and do this in Episode IX?’”

    No Rian answered, because this movie is all about my vision. Shut up Mark, go and take your incredibly oversized fishing rod and threaten some of your students with it will you?

    All joking aside, they really should have waited for 9. I am fine with Luke dying and Snoke dying but it was too early to do it in 8. So yeah, I’m with Hamill on this one.

    • December 18, 2017 at 5:38 pm
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      I think we need to wait and see 9 before we really know if it was right for Luke to die in 8. It depends on where they take things in 9. Having Luke gone may allow them to take the story in new places in 9.

      • December 18, 2017 at 5:53 pm
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        The thing is that TFA was a reset and TLJ is a reset again. I have no idea where the story will go in the future and given that IX is the final part of the trilogy this is a bad thing. It just shows how the story is all over the place. It fells like a TV series that can go on indefinitely and thus needs a reset every once in a while but this is not a carefully planned out trilogy and it really shows. As excited as I was about TLJ I now care more about the anthology movies because there no longer is a red line in the sequel trilogy. The only plotline that’s still there is the dynamic between Kylo and Rey and its so blurry that I don’t know wether Kylo and Rey will kill or f*ck each other in IX. There’s no buildup spanning from ep 7 to ep 9 and its painfully evident that the directors are just making up the story on the fly which makes it lose all impact on a larger scale. TLJ is an excellent standalone movie but it fails in its function as sequel. I can only shake my head at how Disney failed at to plan out at least some rough plotlines before doing this trilogy.

      • December 18, 2017 at 7:09 pm
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        It can’t go anywhere I am interested in seeing.

        Rey and Kylo showdown? What the heck are they fighting about again?

        That line of Rose’s near the end… oh what a groaner. “We are going to win this not by killing what we hate, but by saving those we love.” Something like that.

        Problem is, those guys you are trying not to hate can kill everyone you love way faster than you can save them. Grown ups understand this. You might be forced to kill someone even though you don’t hate them if that means saving lives. Utter drivel.

        It is so deeply terrible.

        I pre-purchased tickets for a second viewing. I went from excited to going to see a Thursday night showing of Star Wars 8 (something not long ago I never thought I’d get to see) to getting a refund for the second set of tickets.

        I got a REFUND for Star Wars.

      • December 18, 2017 at 7:09 pm
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        It can’t go anywhere I am interested in seeing.

        Rey and Kylo showdown? What the heck are they fighting about again?

        That line of Rose’s near the end… oh what a groaner. “We are going to win this not by killing what we hate, but by saving those we love.” Something like that.

        Problem is, those guys you are trying not to hate can kill everyone you love way faster than you can save them. Grown ups understand this. You might be forced to kill someone even though you don’t hate them if that means saving lives. Utter drivel.

        It is so deeply terrible.

        I pre-purchased tickets for a second viewing. I went from excited to going to see a Thursday night showing of Star Wars 8 (something not long ago I never thought I’d get to see) to getting a refund for the second set of tickets.

        I got a REFUND for Star Wars.

        • December 18, 2017 at 7:12 pm
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          I’m sorry you feel disappointed.
          I am looking forward to the conflicts of Kylo. He has conflicts with himself, Rey and Hux. I find the last one to be the most exciting one.

          • December 18, 2017 at 7:22 pm
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            I have to say, Hux didn’t bother me that much, even though I see the point of critics who say he is more comic relief than a menacing villain.

            Generally, the acting wasn’t bad at all. It was the story that bothered me.

    • December 18, 2017 at 5:53 pm
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      In many stories, the mentor dies early, such as Ep IV (Obi Wan), EP VI in the beginning (Yoda), HP 6 (Dumbledore) or the Fellowship (Gandalf). I see it as part of storytelling that the mentor dies, so the student can grow.

      • December 18, 2017 at 5:57 pm
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        Obi Wan is replaced by Yoda. Luke has a teacher in every single OT movie. Dumbledore dies at the end of part 6 out of 7. The Luke equivalent for him would have to be do die in Goblet of Fire. Gandalf is reborn and does not die at all. You just gave 3 examples why Rian’s timing was more than unfortunate.

        • December 18, 2017 at 6:01 pm
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          In the final battle, none of the mentors are present. Yoda and Obi Wan are not there, when Luke faces Vader and the Emperor. Dumbledore is not there on the final battle at Hogwarts and Gandalf is not there when the fellowship breaks. The next Episode, Rey has to fight on her own, without a mentor.

        • December 18, 2017 at 6:01 pm
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          In the final battle, none of the mentors are present. Yoda and Obi Wan are not there, when Luke faces Vader and the Emperor. Dumbledore is not there on the final battle at Hogwarts and Gandalf is not there when the fellowship breaks. The next Episode, Rey has to fight on her own, without a mentor.

          • December 18, 2017 at 6:12 pm
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            Yeah sure but they die towards the end of the series. Noone would have any issue with Snoke dying halway through ep 9 or Luke dying halfway through 9. It makes sense that the hero no longer has the support of a mentor in the FINAL confrontation which is why they are taken out of the equation before that. The mentor is removed in the final stages of the story, usually survived by the main antagonist. As it stands we are exactly where we were in TFA. Rey is an incredibly overpowered nobody and Kylo still fights for the First Order. Oh I forgot he is now Supreme leader. Well guess what he could be the Supreme Leader of the First Intergalactic Wookie Syndicate because we learn exactly as much about the FO as we learn about the FIWS I just made up. What an amazing character developement for Kylo. We never learnt why he joined the FO in the first place but now we know that he is the leader of the FO. Can’t wait for him to be defeated by Rey which definitely didn’t already happen in TFA…

      • December 18, 2017 at 6:59 pm
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        There was no mentoring.

        Did I miss something? Did Luke actually train Rey at all?

        If Luke was going to die anyway, just have him go to Crait and fight. Have him raise up his X-wing (which was just sitting in the water for no clear story purpose) and go.

    • December 18, 2017 at 5:56 pm
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      It was all about Rian’s vision. He’s the one who was entrusted to make the film. This trilogy isn’t about Luke Skywalker. Cramming his death into the same movie that resolves Kylo and Rey’s storyline would detract from both.

      • December 18, 2017 at 5:58 pm
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        Yeah and Rians vision leads to the worst fan reaction in the history of Star Wars. So good job I guess.

        • December 18, 2017 at 6:51 pm
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          Some of the worst, yes. But some of the best in the history too.

          • December 18, 2017 at 7:04 pm
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            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1798bf68708ea6e9a4e644902cc621648c4e63320549eb3a58c1336f8a0186a7.jpg

            Keep in mind that ratings usually go down the longer a movie is out. Also keep in mind that there are a lot more Star Wars fans than critics. There’s a reason why JJ had to pitch his early storydraft to Bob Iger himself about 2 days ago. Seems like the absolute creative freedom that Lucasfilm had is gone. This statistic really hits the nail on the head.

            As a standalone movie I liked it a lot. I has some amazing scenes, is overall very well done and kept me interested throughout the 2,5 hours of its runing time. This aspect of how I feel about TLJ is represented in the critics score. Critics mostly rate a Star Wars movie for what it is and not so much how it ties in with the rest if the saga and with this in mind I agree on the overall high ratings.

            However from a fanperspective TLJ has utterly failed in my oppinion. It doesn’t connect to TFA or the rest of the saga in any meaningful way and this is what fans, who are interested in the movie as part of the whole franchise rather than an isolated story, criticise so much about it. I really hope Bob Iger and JJ see this statistic before principal photography and the production of Rian’s trilogy go into full swing

          • December 18, 2017 at 7:09 pm
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            okay, maybe I don’t get the difference between standalone and franchise? But how should it have more tied in to the previous story? It continued the stories of the FO fighting the Resistance and Rey with Luke and also Fin. It answered a few questions and left a few open (such as how did Maz get the lightsaber – which I to be honest don’t care about). What was your expectation of that movie?
            ESB also did a new story and left questions from 4 open, such as how did the Empire rise, who is the new Grand Moff. Who is the Emperor. Why is Luke suddenly so strong in the force …

          • December 18, 2017 at 7:31 pm
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            Questions it didn’t answer:

            – the story of the lightsaber, how Maz got it and why she kept it save so that Rey could find it
            – where are the knights of ren
            – where did Snoke come from, what did he want, how did he corrupt Kylo
            – why is Kylo a member of the first order, what are his goals moving forward
            – what is the first order. how did it rise to power, what does it want
            – where does the map of Luke come from, who was Lor San Tekka and why does he know Kylo, why did R2 have the map to Luke if he didn’t want to be found
            – what was written in the jedi texts, what was the purpose of the force tree

            Many characters from TFA were killed of or ignored. Finn’s story went literally in circles, Ackbar was killed offscreen, Phasma had a cameo then died, Snoke died leaving behind nothing but questions. With him all the answers as to why the first order exists and what it wants and why Kylo is a member of it and what he hoped to achive joining it die too.

            Many powerful scenes in the TFA are now ridiculous. I will never look at Hux’ speech on starkillerbase the same. He was turned into a laughing stock to make room for supreme leader Kylo. The emotional scene where Rey hands over the lightsaber was destroyed for a cheap joke.

            There’s quite a bit of negative impact on the overallsaga. The force is now easy to master. You don’t need training, no powerful bloodline, no mentors. Most spacebattles in the past could have been solved by just flying a massive ship with lightspead into the deathstar. Jedi can now conjure lightningstorms…

            TL:DR a succesful sequel doesn’t reset the story to were it was just one movie before. A succesful sequel doesn’t ignore glaring questions and doesn’t degrade or eliminate characters just to get rid of them. A succesful sequel doesn’t set up a Kylo vs Rey showdown which we already had in TFA!

          • December 18, 2017 at 7:31 pm
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            Questions it didn’t answer:

            – the story of the lightsaber, how Maz got it and why she kept it save so that Rey could find it
            – where are the knights of ren
            – where did Snoke come from, what did he want, how did he corrupt Kylo
            – why is Kylo a member of the first order, what are his goals moving forward
            – what is the first order. how did it rise to power, what does it want
            – where does the map of Luke come from, who was Lor San Tekka and why does he know Kylo, why did R2 have the map to Luke if he didn’t want to be found
            – what was written in the jedi texts, what was the purpose of the force tree

            Many characters from TFA were killed of or ignored. Finn’s story went literally in circles, Ackbar was killed offscreen, Phasma had a cameo then died, Snoke died leaving behind nothing but questions. With him all the answers as to why the first order exists and what it wants and why Kylo is a member of it and what he hoped to achive joining it die too.

            Many powerful scenes in the TFA are now ridiculous. I will never look at Hux’ speech on starkillerbase the same. He was turned into a laughing stock to make room for supreme leader Kylo. The emotional scene where Rey hands over the lightsaber was destroyed for a cheap joke.

            There’s quite a bit of negative impact on the overallsaga. The force is now easy to master. You don’t need training, no powerful bloodline, no mentors. Most spacebattles in the past could have been solved by just flying a massive ship with lightspead into the deathstar. Jedi can now conjure lightningstorms…

            TL:DR a succesful sequel doesn’t reset the story to were it was just one movie before. A succesful sequel doesn’t ignore glaring questions and doesn’t degrade or eliminate characters just to get rid of them. A succesful sequel doesn’t set up a Kylo vs Rey showdown which we already had in TFA!

          • December 18, 2017 at 7:56 pm
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            I’d argue that most of those questions either don’t matter or are holes from TFA rather than TLJ, but to each his own.

          • December 18, 2017 at 8:10 pm
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            TFA was supposed to set up questions not answer them. How is it the fault of the first part of a trilogy if the parts that follow don’t answer these questions. And if you take a look at why people criticise the most about TLJ you will see that the lack of answering questions is one of the biggest issues most people have. The 56% Rotten Tomatoes rating is horrible. Teh franchise can’t move forward leaving behind 50% of it’s fans. It’s baffling how a good movie like TLJ fails almost completely to connect with the rest of the saga. One of the things I have way more often I should in the last few days is: I hope IX will put things into context. It’s a shame really and I hope Rian does not get a chance to set up a new trilogy based on how estranged his vision left so many fans.

          • December 18, 2017 at 8:29 pm
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            It does connect neatly, just moves things forward in an unusual way for the series. But I’m not going to convince you about that, so it matters not.

            Some of the questions you made were never supposed to get answered next. JJ loves his open mysteries that never are resolved, and you have to know that this is true

            On the other hand, I’m not even criticizing TFA. Most of those questions are inconsequential, and have almost exact equivalents in the original trilogy, except we later got the prequels to explain almost everything.

            If everything you ask had to be answered, this film would need be called Exposition Wars, an then, it would be objectively bad,.

          • December 18, 2017 at 8:43 pm
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            Hmm well let me ask you a couple of questions.

            What were Kylo’s motivations in TFA, how did they change in TLJ and what are his motivations moving forward. Same for Rey.

          • December 18, 2017 at 8:59 pm
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            Ok, a quick one, then. But let’s not turn this into a pop quiz 😉

            Kylo’s motivations in TFA were following on his grandfather’s steps. He shaped his whole identity wanting to be Vader’s successor (an idea Snoke obviously endorses, and probably the way he seduced him).

            In TLJ, he starts to feel a little ambivalent about it all, after his killing of Han Solo. Snoke, now disappointed in him, mocks him for being a wanna-be Vader, but not living to the true name of his grandfather.

            We see Kylo, essentially a man-child, destroying his Vader-like helmet and realizing he has to be his own person, not the expectations that his family name carries (and which both Snoke and Luke exploited).

            Enters his “down with the old, up with the new” philosophy. This goes both sides. He already killed Han, his fellow Jedi and tried to kill Luke. But Snoke has to go too, so he betrays him, “his true enemy.”

            He’s completely honest afterwards, when he tells Rey he plans to take over not just because he wants power, but because he really thinks he might do things differently for the Gaalaxy, since the old ways are those of never ending conflict. For that end, he becomes Supreme Leader.

            Now he’s not a child trying to be Vader. He actually reigns, something his grandfather never did.

            As for Rey, I’ll write this below, because this post is already long enough…

          • December 18, 2017 at 8:59 pm
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            Ok, a quick one, then. But let’s not turn this into a pop quiz 😉

            Kylo’s motivations in TFA were following on his grandfather’s steps. He shaped his whole identity wanting to be Vader’s successor (an idea Snoke obviously endorses, and probably the way he seduced him).

            In TLJ, he starts to feel a little ambivalent about it all, after his killing of Han Solo. Snoke, now disappointed in him, mocks him for being a wanna-be Vader, but not living to the true name of his grandfather.

            We see Kylo, essentially a man-child, destroying his Vader-like helmet and realizing he has to be his own person, not the expectations that his family name carries (and which both Snoke and Luke exploited).

            Enters his “down with the old, up with the new” philosophy. This goes both sides. He already killed Han, his fellow Jedi and tried to kill Luke. But Snoke has to go too, so he betrays him, “his true enemy.”

            He’s completely honest afterwards, when he tells Rey he plans to take over not just because he wants power, but because he really thinks he might do things differently for the Gaalaxy, since the old ways are those of never ending conflict. For that end, he becomes Supreme Leader.

            Now he’s not a child trying to be Vader. He actually reigns, something his grandfather never did.

            As for Rey, I’ll write this below, because this post is already long enough…

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:05 pm
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            Why is Snoke or the FO needed to achieve this character transformation? Why does Kylo want to find Luke and how does he even know Luke is still alive after the incident at the academy? Why not have Kylo undergo the same transformation while simultaneously building his own Empire rather than having him take over what someone else built (even though we don’t know why or how)

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:18 pm
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            I told you I won’t make this into a pop quiz 😉

            Yes, I could be talking about Star Wars all day long, but I also have a real life, plus this keyboard is freaking small.

            Also, it’s not fun when you’re the only one making questions, because I think I answered your original one.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:28 pm
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            No you really didn’t because the problem is how shallow Kylo’s motivations are. As soon as you go a little bit deeper you can no longer explain his motivations his which is why I have a problem with Rian’s storytelling.

            – Kylo did X because of Snoke!
            – Well what did Snoke want?
            – Uhm…

            – Kylo wanted to be like Vader!
            – Why, wouldn’t his parents have told him that he was not all good but infact most of the time the henchman of a Sith dictator?
            – Uhm…

            I would see how deep I could go before you could no longer answer his motivations. But I can understadn if you don’t have the time to write back, thanks anyways 🙂

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:37 pm
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            You really don’t know anything about what started Kylo down his path to the dark side than that Snoke corrupted him and he perceived that Luke betrayed him. However, all you need to know is that once you start down the path towards the dark side forever will dominate your destiny!

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:38 pm
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            The questions can be answered. I’m just frustrated at having to. It’s not like I will change your notions, so why bother?

            In any case his TFA’s motivations were much more shallow than TLJ’s, which are way more mature.

            The other thing is that you’re not asking the right questions. Some of them are so incredibly inconsequential that I just can’t get into the trouble of answering them all.

            Why Kylo knew Luke was alive? Really? Is this a true question?

            Because he knows. How, we don’t know, and it doesn’t matter at all. For all we know, he could have seen him getting out of the rubble as he flew away in his starship along his recruited friends, or WHATEVER, because it’s not important.

            I’ve never wondered exactly how Obi-Wan knew Vader was alive if he thought he had killed him. He just did. Maybe he felt his survival in the Force, or maybe he saw Vader in Tatooine’s CNN and recognized him, or maybe WHATEVER. It doesn’t matter at all for either storytelling frame.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:43 pm
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            “Why Kylo knew Luke was alive? Really? Is this a true question?

            Because he knows. How, we don’t know, and it doesn’t matter at all.”

            Is this meant to be sarcasm or do you literally not care about the central plot element of TFA? Well at leas now I can understand how you have no issues with Rian not answering these questions. Thanks for your insight but I think I’m good 🙂

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:46 pm
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            No, he’s totally right. We don’t need to know. Kylo knows. That’s all we need to know. Just like we don’t need to see Leia learning to use the Force. Luke says she will learn to use it as he has. Cut to 30 years later and she can use it. There are only 2.5 hours to tell the damn story.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:50 pm
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            I was starting to think people didn’t know how to infer things left unsaid but which are either obvious or don’t matter. Thankfully some still do.

          • December 18, 2017 at 10:03 pm
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            Anything more complex than the plot of a Marvel movie has to be spelled out in the most basic terms. Hence the scene where Poe ask Finn to explain his plan slower.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:48 pm
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            The central plot element of TFA was that Kylo knew Luke had survived?

            My Goodness gracious, you’re right. I probably missed it all. Hmm… Maybe I’ve never seen the film, now that you mention it. Maybe I saw another one and I thought I was seeing TFA, because I’m definitely sure I’ve never seen a film where that is a central plot element, or even a plot element at all.

            I’m good too. I can understand anyone criticizing TLJ (it wasn’t completely my cup of tea either) but doing it by nitpicking made-up reasons is not the right way because every argument I can make would be void.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:14 pm
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            So, Rey.

            Her motivation in TFA is quite simple too. She wants to find her place, and she thinks she will do it by figuring out her past. She convinces herself she must be someone important, a big secret, and that her parents definitely have to come back for her.

            But Maz already warned her: “The longing you seek is not behind you, it is in front of you” (See? Actually TLJ and TFA thematically connect beautifully, if you allow it)

            So, in TLJ, she does indeed go forward. At first, she does it because she (like the audience) thinks she’ll figure our something important about herself.

            It does not happen. She again tries to figure out her past in the cave, but the Force answers by showing her nothing but herself (“The longing you seek is not behind you, it is in front of you”, the cave could have easily said too).

            Kylo does the thing that could most easily seduce her, then.

            Rey finds that her parents where nobody, really. They weren’t important. They didn’t even love her. This is exactly as horrific for her as it was for Luke finding Vader was his father. Again, great thematic connection with the saga.

            Anyway, Kylo thinks he’ll seduce her. She’s nobody, but she is for him.

            He’s sorely mistaken, though. Because Rey, horrified as she is, starts a parallel, yet opposite transformation to Kylo. She realizes for the first time that, if she’s nobody, then she’s not special because of her past. She’s not special because of her ancestry. She’s special because she is her own person (remember Kylo’s transformation?) and she made special decisions of her own.

            By the end of the film, she’s no longer attached to her past. She’s Rey, hero of the Resistance (that’s the great significance of her scene with Poe. He knows who she is, she’s already important, no matter she came from nowhere). She literally closes the door of the Falcon in Kylo’s face, signifying closure of her fruitless search of answers in the wrong places (something some of us should start doing!)

            The final scene with the kid of Cantonia underlines her arc.

          • December 19, 2017 at 10:15 am
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            okay, now I understand your questions. Some of them have been answered in the books leading to TFA, but I understand that you would have rather seen them on screen. The others, e.g. the Knights of Ren, are not that important to me (Thrawn for example was also not shown in the OT, neither were the Inquisitors, even though they might have been present – the galaxy is too big to fit everyone into a movie), but I understand that it would have been cool to have them answered – however, for me this does take nothing away from the quality of TLJ.

            As far as I can see, Fin did not run in circles: He left TFA as a friend of the Resistance, being there, only because Rey is there. At the end of TLJ, he is fully committed to the Resistance, even though DJ showed him a different, a third option.

          • December 18, 2017 at 7:41 pm
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            Heard that one before. They never built up a hype about Tarkin. We didn’t know if there was only one Grandmoff or many. There are also a lot of successors filling out his role In TESB. Many of them are choked to death by Vader making it clear that they do not have a special role whatsoever. As for the Empire you cannot compare it to the FO and here’s why.

            The Empire is established as a galaxywide dictatorship with the Emperor on top of the chain of command. If I asked you what dictatorships are afraid of you would immediately answer “loosing power”. It is obvious that all actions of the Empire are inhernetly directed towards not losing power. The FO however is not in that position. Also the Empire was placed in a story that didn’t have any context when it was created. The same cannot be said abou the SEQUELtrilogy. It’s a nobrainer that introducing a new element into an already established franchise takes more explaination than simply setting up such an organisation in a blank space.

          • December 18, 2017 at 7:55 pm
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            I’m not arguing it’s not a divisive film. It is. But as much as some people HATE it, some others LOVE it.

            That really didn’t happen with the prequels. Critics hated it, some fans did too, an even the ones who liked them weren’t very enthusiastic.

            So I would rephrase your statement to “strongest reactions” instead of “worst reactions ever”. Because it’s very polarized. For one person will tell you it’s hateful, and then another will say it’s the “best one in the series.”

        • December 18, 2017 at 9:05 pm
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          HA!!! You think this is the worst fan reaction in Star Wars history? See episodes I-III. Most fans like or love this film but just like you’re more prone to get on Yelp! to review a restaurant when you have a bad experience, more people flood the message boards when they have a gripe.

          Lucasfilm shouldn’t make these films for fans. They should just tell good stories. They made The Force Awakens for fans and we’ve had to listen to the gripes about its similarity to A New Hope for two years! I guess you can please some of the nerds some of the time but you can’t please all of the nerds all of the time.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:13 pm
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            Rotten Tomatoes wasn’t around like it is in 1999. False narrative, Bob

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:22 pm
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            Exactly, which means that the statistic looks even worse for TLJ because the ratings were done by people who already were used to the narrative “TPM sucks!”. There weren’t any overzealous fanboys to upvote TPM before everyone agreed that it sucks. These ratings usually get worse the longer a movie is released because the average viewer evens out the fanboys who see the movie first and vote for it first. So TPM got better votes even though it didn’t have the initial fanboy boost and was already critically panned when the RT voting system went online. It has been downvoted for years to get this low and TLJ managed to get there in 5 days, which is exactly why it is so terrifying.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:32 pm
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            Or evidence that online polls are bullshit and precisely why they aren’t used by anyone for actual insight about anything. Relying on RT’s audience poll is like looking at a poll on Fox News’ homepage for the President’s approval rating. It’s not scientific and bias in favor of a vocal and motivated minority.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:39 pm
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            Yeah we should stop polling alltogether. Why do something stupid like marketing research. I mean it’s just 107,865 votes. I don’t even know why we learnt about statistics and target audience when I was still studying game design and arts. You know what. I should tell my boss to fire the monetization department. This guy on disqus said we don’t need them

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:52 pm
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            If you’re “minimization department” is relying on an online poll for their data then yes they should totally be fired.

          • December 18, 2017 at 10:08 pm
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            Haha you’re a real marketingexpert aren’t you. If you don’t understand the relevance of polls on the internet for analyzing consumer prefernce you must live behind a rock. hell even such things like “number of views for trailer X in time Y on youtube” are relevant factors for marketing departments.

          • December 18, 2017 at 10:21 pm
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            Well, actually I do work in the marketing department of a major national

            website.

            It’s ok if you didn’t like the movie. Totally fine by me but c’mon man. You can’t claim that the Rotten Tomatoes audience score is in any way scientific.

          • December 19, 2017 at 12:54 am
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            It’s not about being scientific it’s about being representative and RT certainly does have valuable data. Fanboys are always happy do bring up RT or IMDB whenerver ratings are good but its a botinfested, faulty source whenever a movie gets bad ratings.

          • December 19, 2017 at 4:46 am
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            Some people may be happy to use the numbers when it supports their opinion. Like how you’re doing it right now but that’s not me. I would never cite an online poll to support any argument. It would be ridiculous to do so. Typically people reference the critic score which actually is an accurate gauge of critic reaction. Those numbers are verifiable. People only reference the audience score when they disagree with the critical reception.

          • December 19, 2017 at 1:11 pm
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            Uhm no, critically acclaimed does not mean succesful in any way. Want me to give you an example. Well what about Bladrunner 2049? Flawless criticical reception but it failed with audiences. Hwo do you think brings back the money DIsney pays for making movies like TLJ? The critics? If so, how does DC manage to make a shitload of money even though their movies are ripped apart by critics time and time again? I can’t believe that you really work in a marketing department when you simply dismiss the reaction on mutliple metacritc websites and news outlets that show how divided people are over TLJ. But of course. its a horde of trolls who have invaded all and every website and commentsection of the interwebs. The deep state of geeks is at it again.

          • December 19, 2017 at 2:27 pm
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            On one hand you have an online poll where anyone can vote as many times as they want without verifying whether they’ve seen the movie and where the voters have to be motivated to seek out the poll to register their score. On the other hand there’s CinemaScore that verifies the person voting has seen the movie, polls a more representative crossection of the audience and whose polling is not susceptible to bots? If you don’t understand why one is reliable and the other is not then I can’t help you.

            BTW IMDB has a fairly high audience score. I wouldn’t cite it because it doesn’t mean anything but why you choose not to cite is obvious.

          • December 19, 2017 at 2:42 pm
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            A poll taken rigth after the premiere of the movie,w ith no time to process what you just have seen. In an environment where you are surrounded by enthusiatic Star Wars fans and can’t answer anonymously. God you truly don’t understand how questionaires work do you. Why do you think the Cinemascore is almost always higher than the ratings people will give anonymously?

            As for IMDB I mentioned it in another thread either in the cantina forum or on disqus. 7,9 is pretty bad given that the movie hasn’t been out that long and that it is a SW movie. I also used the IMDB score to show that, unlike it was the case with Ghostbusters there weren’t 10 star “go girl” reviews vs 1 star “we hate girls” but in case of TLJ there are quite a lot of 2-5 star reviews which indicate a genuine dislike rather than agenda driven hating.

          • December 19, 2017 at 3:51 pm
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            So, Star Wars fans are enthusiastic now? I thought they were torn and angry that they still don’t know who Snoke is and that Luke wasn’t a one dimensional character.

            You don’t understand the CinemaScore scale, the 7.9 IMDB score is in line with the critic rating on Rotten Tomatoes, and no one is too intimidated to respond honestly to a questionnaire in the lobby of a movie theater.

          • December 19, 2017 at 3:51 pm
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            So, Star Wars fans are enthusiastic now? I thought they were torn and angry that they still don’t know who Snoke is and that Luke wasn’t a one dimensional character.

            You don’t understand the CinemaScore scale, the 7.9 IMDB score is in line with the critic rating on Rotten Tomatoes, and no one is too intimidated to respond honestly to a questionnaire in the lobby of a movie theater.

          • December 18, 2017 at 10:48 pm
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            No. But internet polls are terrible. Live polling gives the movie an “A” score. That’s the kind of polling you should put stock in. Internet polls are way too easy to mess with.

          • December 19, 2017 at 12:46 am
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            Yeah sure, live polls. Taking place about 2 minutes after the credits rolled. Taken during openin nights when only hardcorefans are present at the cinema. I’ll give you a hint: Polls taken directly after screenings tend to be a lot better than online polls because people didn’t have the time to make up their mind yet and because of social pressure since other people are present while you are polling.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:39 pm
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            Exactly. Besides, why trust the actual expert film connoisseurs? Hurt fanboys’ opinions are so much more reliable, right?

          • December 19, 2017 at 12:00 am
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            its a tough call, believe the fanboys or believe the disney shills, only one side of this equation is getting paid.

          • December 19, 2017 at 12:23 am
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            Right, Disney pays every media outlet in the world to review their movies positively.

            I thought that absurd notion only ensued in Marvel Vs. DC boards.

            Listen, I have many colleagues whose reviews are featured in RT or Metacritic. If you really knew how that works you would understand how absurd it is.

          • December 19, 2017 at 12:54 am
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            Or, they were done by PT fanboys. But nice try.

          • December 19, 2017 at 12:57 am
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            PT fanboys? Did you really say there are PT fanboys? Haha that was the funniest excuse I’ve heard so far 😀 you’re really grasping for straws now. Awwww yes all the phantom menace lovers who religiously view attack of the clones downvoted the last jedi. Seems legit.

          • December 19, 2017 at 3:34 pm
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            No, you need to learn how to read. The positive user ratings for TPM and AOTC were done by PT fanboys. I didn’t say TLJ’s negative ratings were from them.

            Those come from upset fans. User reviews are about as useless as talking to you.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:56 pm
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            It’s pretty clear that a small group of enraged nerds are skewing Rotten Tomatoes online poll.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:56 pm
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            It’s pretty clear that a small group of enraged nerds are skewing Rotten Tomatoes online poll.

          • December 18, 2017 at 10:04 pm
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            How do you know that. I have seen other polls that indicate rather mixed oppinions throughout the interwebs. The simpel fact that the haters can cancel out the fanboys speaks for itself.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/819fb0ece13156a3f7af67aa7a652b3371d19add0d2222961df89a734dc7c8e5.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a0574ab9d938035a35220bf0ebc106d12bc40b570d1e05e2529e28a78b07831e.png

            Also why didn’t they do that with any other SW movie 😉

          • December 18, 2017 at 10:11 pm
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            Ummm because this is a challenging film and it is elicits a strong reaction that other Star Wars movies haven’t? I’m not arguing that there aren’t people with strong negative reactions. That exactly my point actually. I’m simply arguing that they are a VERY vocal minority and online polls don’t reflect the general audience’s opinion.

          • December 18, 2017 at 10:15 pm
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            And I argue against the fact that its a minority when even a movie like “The Phantom Menace” hated by the majority has better fan reviews. There’s simply no reason to assume it’s just a vocal minority. If the haters couldn’t mess with TFA and R1 or any other SW movie then how come they suddenly have the technology and motivation to trash TLJ. If you make such claims back them up with evidence.

          • December 18, 2017 at 11:40 pm
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            Or The Phantom Menace’s rating is higher because the furor over that film had died down before Rotten Tomatoes came to prominence. You really don’t grasp the fact that the Rotten Tomatoes audience score is nebulous, unscientific and susceptible to all kinds of influences. Is that just because it’s reinforcing your opinion on The Last Jedi? Nevermind, that’s obviously the reason.

          • December 19, 2017 at 12:43 am
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            Dude you can see how I voted this movie if you look at the poll I took in the forums. (The option with the dot right next to it)
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a0574ab9d938035a35220bf0ebc106d12bc40b570d1e05e2529e28a78b07831e.png
            I am just not naive enough to not notice the controversy this movie has sparked. It’s a really good movie but a terrible sequel. If I had to rate it as a standalone movie it would be 8/10 but as a sequel it’s a 3/10 at best since it fails to answer important questions and shows little care for the movie that came before it. Must be really hard to acknowledge the concerns other people have and call all of them botters and vocal minorities. I can show you the video of multiple youtubers like Dashstar or EckhardsLadder who devote their free time to create Star Wars content who had some serious issue with the movie. So don’t act as if all these oppinions are not valid even though I have showed you multiple polls by now. If even Disney’s boss Bob Iger told JJ to pitch the story for IX to him this clearly means that Disney is not happy with the backlash and that they no longer trust KK and Lucasfilm to have complete creative control. Do you really think Disney would feel the need to such a drastic step if the criticism came just from a “vocal minority”. Come on dude try being objective for once. I love Star Wars but TLJ fails as a sequel in many aspects.

          • December 19, 2017 at 5:15 am
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            J.J. pitched episode. 9 the day after TLJ came out. Do you think that meeting wasn’t scheduled weeks in advance or that Bob Iger actually gives two shits about what a handful of hysterical nerds are saying online? Are you imagining a senario where Bob Iger flipped his shit and demanded that J.J. book a flight to have an emergency meeting so J.J. could make his pitch whether he was ready to or not and he did this all because he saw the Rotten Tomatoes audience score? You believe that’s how the guy who runs a multimedia empire operates and does so while looking at the second highest box office opening of all time? I’m pretty sure they spent that meeting congratulating each other on the success of The Last Jedi and drinking champagne while J.J. explained to Bob how they were going to make another $2 billion on the next movie.

            Lucasfilm will have made well over $4 billion dollars in ticket sales off of three movies by the time TLJ ends it’s theatrical run. Kathleen Kennedy is very much in the good graces of Bob Iger.

            You need to use the Force like Leia and fly back to reality.

          • December 19, 2017 at 1:05 pm
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            Then why didn’t tehy have to do this before. Why didn’t they have to pitch the story before. I am pretyt sure Disney was aware of the controversial nature of the story. And again, prove that its only a vocal minority when even the Washington Post, CNN and Vanity Fair have already writtena rticles about the TLJ backlash.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:19 pm
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            You, Kevin, are right about both points.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:19 pm
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            You, Kevin, are right about both points.

        • December 18, 2017 at 9:12 pm
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          HHAHAHAHAAHAHAH you weren’t alive in 1999?

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:25 pm
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            I was there in the cinema and as I was a child then I was shocked how adults hated the movie. Didn’t see anyone walk out of TPM though while during bothy of my TLJ showings people walked out of the movie. I’m telling you there’s a reason why JJ had to pitch his story to Iger instead of Kennedy. Lucasfilm has lost their complete creative freedom and I am okay with that seeing how incapable they are of planning out the trilogy.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:42 pm
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            So the fact that you don’t remember anyone walking out of the screening of The Phantom Menace when you were a child is evidence that people dislike The Last Jedi more. Are you familiar with anecdotal evidence? I could say that no one walked out of the three screenings on TLJ I’ve been to and there was raucous laughter and applause throughout the movie but it doesn’t prove my point. I do remember swaths of angry nerds tearing George Lucas down for ruining their childhood with The Phantom Menace. That’s not just an anecdote. That was and is still a thing.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:46 pm
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            Which is why I provided a statistic consisting of more than 100.000 oppinions btu you didn’t accept that either. I mentioned that annecdote because he said “member Phantom menace” and I said “yes I member”

          • December 19, 2017 at 12:54 am
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            Then you should have been a little older. Because I saw it.

            I’m telling you, you have no idea what you are talking about. If that were the case, Rian wouldn’t be getting a whole new trilogy.

            But keep piling on the BS.

          • December 19, 2017 at 2:47 am
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            Kathleen Kennedy needs to go!

        • December 19, 2017 at 6:14 am
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          I remember TPM. Yeah, people were a bit confused, took everyone a while to admit to themselves it wasn’t any good.

          But all the fans I knew held out hope the next one would be better.

          Then AOTC sucked. But still there was hope Lucas would nail the finale.

          Then ROTS hit. “Noooooooooooo!”

          Now, TLJ is SO bad most of the people I know — even rabid Star Wars fanatics — have ceased to care what comes next in the trilogy.

          That is a level of bad not even TPM could hope to achieve.

          I will take midichlorians over Leia flying through space any day.

      • December 18, 2017 at 6:55 pm
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        Kylo and Rey’s story?

        What story is that?

        Rey has zero arc. From day one, she is a brilliant mechanic, gunner, pilot and even Jedi. Completely unearned. Nobody cares.

        This movie was a complete trainwreck.

        By the way, there is NO way Palpatine didn’t survive the destruction of the second Death Star. If Leia, without any training, can survive an explosion, decompression and then exposure to space, there is not a chance Palpatine didn’t escape.

        The inconsistencies, plot holes, missed opportunities… they could go on for pages and pages. This isn’t just “playing with Star Wars tropes”. It’s garbage storytelling. Most of the plotlines in TLJ were completely pointless.

        • December 18, 2017 at 9:12 pm
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          You should watch the movies.

          • December 18, 2017 at 9:16 pm
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            My earliest movie memory is Star Wars at a drive-in theater. I am (was) as big a fan as anyone.

            This idea that anyone who doesn’t like TLJ doesn’t know Star Wars, or hasn’t seen the other movies, is laughable.

            The only thing more depressing that TLJ are the people trying to convince themselves it was good.

          • December 19, 2017 at 12:56 am
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            You clearly aren’t watching if you think Rey has no arc. Not even close.

            The only thing more depressing is people like you who think someone else’s opinion is invalid.

          • December 19, 2017 at 6:04 am
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            Projecting harder than Luke there.

            You got it exactly backward. I expressed the unpopular opinion here there TLJ is a steaming pile. Predictably, I caught flak. I was told my opinion is not valid. Not complaining, I get it. Completely expected.

            So it’s kind of funny to have you try to spin things the other way.

            Beyond expressing a different view, where did I say anyone’s opinion is invalid?

          • December 19, 2017 at 2:37 pm
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            yes, its the old “attack the messenger: because we can attack the movie. I dont get these “fansites” that are praising this film. It goes against everything set up before, makes no sense, and in the end does absolutely nothing to expand the galaxy or the characters.
            Take Jar Jar Rose, what did she add? other than taking away the only self sacrifice and character growth moment in the entire film.

          • December 19, 2017 at 3:30 pm
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            She showed Finn his place.

          • December 19, 2017 at 3:29 pm
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            Right here, cupcake:

            “The only thing more depressing that TLJ are the people trying to convince themselves it was good.”

            Whether something is good or not is up to each person. Your statement implies anyone who thinks its good is lying to themselves and that your opinion is the only valid one.

            Try to keep up with your own BS. I hate having to explain people’s own words to them.

          • December 19, 2017 at 4:20 pm
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            Right back at you, cupcake:

            “You should watch the movies.”

            So… my opinion is not valid because I cannot have actually watched Star Wars movies and formed the opinion I’m expressing. I don’t know what I’m talking about when I question things like Leia flying through space, or Luke dying pointlessly just to get him out of the way.

            Because someone who REALLY knows Star Wars wouldn’t bat an eye at anything in TLJ.

          • December 19, 2017 at 8:34 pm
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            If you think Rey has no arc, you aren’t watching.

            Simple as that. That’s what makes your point invalid.

          • December 19, 2017 at 8:34 pm
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            If you think Rey has no arc, you aren’t watching.

            Simple as that. That’s what makes your point invalid.

          • December 19, 2017 at 8:44 pm
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            Thanks for clarifying. So the rules you’ve established here are…

            1. I can’t say any opinion or point is invalid.
            2. You can deem an opinion or point invalid.

          • December 19, 2017 at 10:41 pm
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            Amazing: every word in that sentence was wrong.
            No one can say an opinion is invalid.

            Anyone can deem a point invalid if the point is wrong and has no bearing on the discussion.

            Try to keep up, please. I am trying to have a civil and reasonable discussion and you are ruining it.

          • December 19, 2017 at 10:58 pm
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            Points vs. opinions, OK.

            So in my opinion Rey has no character arc, or at least not one worth my time.

            But opinions are off limits. So you call my opinion a “point”, and by your rules you CAN say a point is invalid.

            Wow. You got me.

            I would rather watch TLJ again than continue this.

        • December 18, 2017 at 11:33 pm
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          this movie served a purpose, to entertain the weak minded who cannot fathom the idea of a Star Wars movie being bad. KK could have shown Luke taking a dump after lunch at Olive Garden and there would some claiming it as the best yet.
          Last Jedi will make a shit ton of money, and they will keep cranking out mediocre garbage, because everyone will eat it all up. Fuck You Disney, I want better – flame on

        • December 19, 2017 at 1:27 am
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          Rey’s story is about her finding her place and her family, which she does by the end of this film. She has let go of the past and is embracing the future. Is that not an arc?

        • December 19, 2017 at 1:27 am
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          Rey’s story is about her finding her place and her family, which she does by the end of this film. She has let go of the past and is embracing the future. Is that not an arc?

    • December 18, 2017 at 6:50 pm
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      I like that this happened here.

      Yes, this film defied conventions, but this wasn’t one of them. The mentor always bits the dust way before the end, so that the hero can end his/her journey alone and truly learn.

      It happened countless times in Star Wars, as well as in many other mythologies. I remember when some Harry Potter fans complained because a major mentor died in book 6.

      “Why couldn’t that happen at the end?”, the said. Because this is Harry’s/Rey’s story. Not the mentor’s any more.

      • December 18, 2017 at 11:36 pm
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        Agree with that, but surely that could have happened in 9?
        As it stands Rey has virtually no training. Yoda didn’t die until ROTJ. Luke could have died in 9, no?

    • December 18, 2017 at 9:12 pm
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      No because this isn’t his story anymore

  • December 18, 2017 at 5:31 pm
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    I agree with Rian’s decision to conclude Luke’s journey on a high note. Since childhood Luke has been my window into the SW world and he was the reason I wanted this new trilogy. TLJ’s story gave him that final “hurah” and the final act of sacrifice that made sense for the character. As much as the “inner child” in all of us wanted to see him tare shit up, I knew in my heart this was the perfect conclusion for him in order to open up room for the young characters to shine. Fantastic directorial decisions in this film. Bravo.

    • December 18, 2017 at 5:32 pm
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      With you on this one.

    • December 18, 2017 at 7:25 pm
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      Was it an act of sacrifice though? It was like Luke ran on the treadmill for too long had a heart attack from the exhaustion and died.

      • December 18, 2017 at 7:28 pm
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        Rey said, he left in peace and on purpose

      • December 18, 2017 at 8:11 pm
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        Only if by running on the treadmill he saved many lives and the hope of the rebellion.

        • December 19, 2017 at 4:06 pm
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          That was one thing about the movie that I found odd that we started calling the Resistance the Rebellion again.

          • December 19, 2017 at 4:10 pm
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            Also, doesn’t Poe describe himself to Hux as being “with the Republic fleet” at the beginning?

      • December 18, 2017 at 9:12 pm
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        It was. He knew such a thing would kill him.

        • December 19, 2017 at 3:58 pm
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          True. He was running low on Manna Force points and he was like fuck it I am going out on top!

          I think the Leia scene could have been handled similarly where she stopped the torpedo from destroying the bridge just long enough for everyone to escape and that using all that force took life out of her and it’s why she ends up in a coma. A lot of stuff from this movie I have been able to accept in a second viewing but this wasn’t (and won’t be) one of them.

      • December 18, 2017 at 10:40 pm
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        That’s why dark force users wouldn’t use this power because it would kill them. They want everlasting life.

      • December 18, 2017 at 10:40 pm
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        That’s why dark force users wouldn’t use this power because it would kill them. They want everlasting life.

      • December 19, 2017 at 3:28 am
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        Obi Wan was pretty healthy too, he crossed light saber couple of times with Darth Vader and he also sacrifice… why is people so critical with every single detail?

  • December 18, 2017 at 5:49 pm
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    I always thought Leias look due to Luke touching her, was because he put the dices into her hands …

  • December 18, 2017 at 5:50 pm
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    It’s kind of sad, actually. Rian probably felt he HAD to end Skywalker to focus on Leia and Kylo’s relationship in the next film. Obviously that can’t happen now. That being said, I wouldn’t trade places with JJ/Tertio right now for all the blue milk on Tatt.

  • December 18, 2017 at 6:23 pm
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    It does make a bit more sense after reading this.

    However would still have liked to see the real Luke on Crait, taking out the At-At’s with the force before a big battle with Ren and then doing the Obi Wan sacrifice due to him being weakened allowing the others to escape

    • December 18, 2017 at 10:51 pm
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      I would of liked that as well. But the more I think about it, I do like how they ended Luke. He reached his highest self (Nirvana). He killed Kylo with kindness, Then became one with the force. And we know that he has become more powerful than Kylo can imagine. (Force ghost).

  • December 18, 2017 at 6:25 pm
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    Just the moment Luke appeared in Crait with brown beard i knew he wasn’t there. During a sec my stupid thought it was Leia’s vision from death, that FO already attacked the old base and all survivors were dead.
    Luke’s death it’s not bad, but it could be a great conclusion for this trilogy.
    A force ghost in 9 would be great.

    • December 18, 2017 at 7:59 pm
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      It has usually been joked that Star Wars fans are the worst of any franchise.

      Having been one since all my life, but never understanding the extreme reactions of some of them, I’ve tried to deny this, but I think this film’s fan response proves it. We’re an ungrateful bunch. XD

      And I’m not taking either side in this post, by the way.

    • December 18, 2017 at 7:59 pm
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      It has usually been joked that Star Wars fans are the worst of any franchise.

      Having been one since all my life, but never understanding the extreme reactions of some of them, I’ve tried to deny this, but I think this film’s fan response proves it. We’re an ungrateful bunch. XD

      And I’m not taking either side in this post, by the way.

      • December 18, 2017 at 9:57 pm
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        Very well said! They are ungrateful. The whiners have this SW movie buzzing around in their heads and if they don’t see it on the screen, they squeal like stuck pigs. I enjoyed TLJ even with it’s flaws, and it has them. In fact, I’ve enjoyed all the SW films…even with their flaws. I consider myself a fortunate man.

      • December 19, 2017 at 3:55 pm
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        This. I would love for second and third favorite movie franchises to get 9+ movies! All I got for Ghostbusters was a disappointing sequel (though I love it) and a trash reboot. We as Star Wars fans should feel fortunate to get sequels even if they vary on quality. The diagram I found is just a commentary on how divisive this movie seems to be.

    • December 19, 2017 at 5:13 am
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      Nice diagram !! LOL.

  • December 18, 2017 at 7:56 pm
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    When he disappears where does his mechanical hand go? For that matter aside from his cloak, where do his clothes go?

    Maybe he was beamed up by the Enterprise?

    • December 18, 2017 at 8:02 pm
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      Where did Yoda’s clothes go, or the leather/wood stuff he had on him? Same with Obi-Wan. Only his outer robes remain.

      It’s always been the same mystery. Remember, the tone is space fantasy, rather than science fiction.

      • December 18, 2017 at 10:56 pm
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        Perhaps he knew he would return as a space ghost in Ep9. Nobody wants to see a naked ghost 😀

        • December 19, 2017 at 6:06 am
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          Good point

  • December 18, 2017 at 8:10 pm
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    Space Leia was KK’s idea? OOOOOKKKKKKK

  • December 18, 2017 at 8:26 pm
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    This movie require to accept many stuff added to Luke death.
    For me it was a good thing, because they surprised us in a good way.
    All fans had expectations created from the OT and from TFA:
    Rey´s past/family/parents, created by herself in the movie, JJ/Kasdan played safe here and RJ was more honest with himself, no bloodlines, no royalty, anyone can be a jedi. Obviously it can still have a twist in Ep. IX.
    Snoke expectations, everybody wanted a new Palpatine, but very powerful and bully Snoke died for good cooked in his own pride, Kylo Ren is a much more interesting character and he learnt Vader lesson about Palpatine, obviously from the dark point of view.
    There is life out of the Jedi, Poe, Finn, Rose, Chew, Leia, they all had development, and I loved it.
    I understand some people could feel trolled when the main topics during these 2 years: Rey´s linage and Snoke were dismissed in the movie. But I actually liked how they solved… “this is not going to be the way you think”…
    So, thanks for accepting the challenge of surprising us.

    • December 19, 2017 at 1:42 am
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      Oh, i can surprise u even more. Lets shoot down the Falcon at the end (with the entire Resistance onboard) and have FO reign over the galaxy for the next millennia – nobody would expect that.

    • December 19, 2017 at 6:05 am
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      For me, this is the best comment of today…Thank you!!!

      • December 19, 2017 at 8:01 am
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        Hey thanks, you made my day! 🙂

  • December 18, 2017 at 8:42 pm
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    When I first saw Luke on Crait my first thought was of an episode of the Simpsons – the famous one with the Monorail. There’s a character from another town that helped Springfield out. He arrives too late and said ‘shouldn’t have stopped for that haircut’. Before I realised Luke was just an illusion on Crait i thought about that character and that one line.

  • December 18, 2017 at 8:47 pm
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    Let’s have a standalone Luke film, while Mark is keen, set maybe between abandoning the temple and TFA. Not labouring the explanation of his fall, because we don’t need those laboured explanations but one last adventure before the resolve to disappear has coalesced. It would be a rounded kind of Luke, the best of the characterisation we’ve just seen and the OT Luke. A smaller, subtler antagonist and as much thought as action. Beats a Kenobi or Boba Fett film doesn’t it?

    • December 18, 2017 at 11:27 pm
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      that was probably the last time you will Mark Hamill as luke, he has said so much already, he hated this film and its portrayal of Luke. He also said if it didn’t take the role he would be the most hated man in fandom.
      I dont think anyone will blame him if he walks away

      • December 19, 2017 at 4:19 am
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        he hated the film? you let yourself be guided by youtube conspiracy theorists.

        Check one of his latest IG posts, Hamill said his original ideas for Luke were terrible and that his initial response was “in fear”, like pretty much everyone would do when facing something new.

  • December 18, 2017 at 9:14 pm
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    Agree 100% about “Space Leia.” Loved seeing her use the Force, but the execution on-screen was a little cringey, to say the least. They just needed to have her be a little closer and not show her floating for so long. It just looked hokey. Oh well. Still a great moment.

    • December 18, 2017 at 10:25 pm
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      Or have her floating and using the force to shield her long enough for someone in the resistance to rescue her.

    • December 19, 2017 at 2:35 am
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      I can’t stand that scene. It took me right out of the movie.

    • December 19, 2017 at 4:19 pm
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      To me it was the pose. I completely understand the Mary Poppins/Superman comments. The irony is it would have made an amazing death scene.

  • December 18, 2017 at 9:23 pm
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    “I think the hero’s journey of Luke Skywalker concluded in Return of the Jedi” Rian is correct. That’s all guys. This trilogy is not about Luke and we need to move on.

    • December 18, 2017 at 10:29 pm
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      Which is why Rey’s big moment — the throne room scene — being placed at the end of the second act and Luke being given the big moment in the third act is so bizarre.

      It would be like watching Luke hang out in the Falcon while Yoda dueled Vader in Empire Strikes Back.

      • December 19, 2017 at 4:15 am
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        and if they put it at the end of the movie, people would complain TLJ was an ESB clone

  • December 18, 2017 at 11:22 pm
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    Luke was the heart and soul of The Last Jedi. My 3 favourite movie scene’s:

    1. Luke’s passing
    2. Luke and Artoo
    3. Luke and Yoda

    All three scenes had me in tears.

  • December 19, 2017 at 2:27 am
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    I start to realize that the biggest problem is that its not really easy to vote with wallet for a SW movie, but after TLJ i will have too. The same way i did after Battlefront 1, i dont buy BF2 not even on discount because its terrible.
    Nowdays seems that the mindset of Disney is to put a shit in form of Vaders helmet and it will sell because its SW (this was literally the mindset of EA management with BF2).
    There is millions of SW Fans out there so its enough when all of them will go to the movie once and it will still be a profit.

    I went to E7 3 times just to process it and still dont like it. Was reading that people are going again at E8 and think its really bad after 2nd viewing -> they put up a bad movie and you pay them twice for it ….

    After the fail with TLJ i will simply spoil myself before any SW movie/game – unfortunately it could ruin some interesting surprise moments, but its the only way how to vote with wallet -> if i dont like what i will read in the spoiler reviews, i will not give them money for it by going to cinema

    • December 19, 2017 at 7:33 am
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      Dude, it’s just your subjective opinion and you think it’s the norm. It isn’t. TLJ was even better after my second viewing. And, that’s my opinion. So it was with everyone I saw it with. Perhaps it’s time you do leave Star Wars and go to another franchise.

      • December 19, 2017 at 5:38 pm
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        i totally agree. i absolutely loved it. I thought Luke was amazing and his death utterly beautifully directed and filmed.

        • December 19, 2017 at 8:47 pm
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          Yep, that was good, but it did have flaws. I’m not sugar-coating the whole film. They could have focused more on Luke & Rey and her training and less on Finn and Rose. However, I enjoyed the overall arc of the film. Some fans over-think the latest films to the point they can’t just relax and let the story ‘flow thru them’. That imaginary movie playing in their heads will never match what they see on the screen. So, they can’t enjoy them.

      • December 20, 2017 at 11:22 pm
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        I dont like other franchises as i like SW. I just need to carefully spend money only on things i consider good.
        Thu i can ban the entire line of E8 related Lego which i do collect.
        Also no more going to see a SW movie just because it has a label of SW and i can only hope that more people start to vote with wallet and dont eat every shit just because it has SW label on it -> as we can see its working with Battlefront 2 sales

        • December 21, 2017 at 7:09 pm
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          Well, no, by your comments it’s apparent you don’t like SW more than the others….anymore. I enjoyed TLJ, regardless if it has the SW label. You keep assuming too much. BF2 is a different situation than TLJ.

    • December 19, 2017 at 8:19 pm
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      If it takes you 3 viewings to realise if you like TFA there is something seriously wrong with you.

      • December 20, 2017 at 11:18 pm
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        First view was midnight premiere together with my wife in my mother language (Slovak) – bad idea. Second was alone in original English. Third was with a friend in IMAX. At least E7 was a bit enjoyable so i could re-watch it multiple times. Without the nonsense Starkiller base it could be at least well OK movie (below expectation, bad acting, bad story …. but acceptable), copy of 4 but ok.
        I then did not bought the E7 DVD even in a discount for like 0.5 Eur in Tesco – its not worth to add it to my collection.

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