SWNN Staff Discusses the New ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi’ Title.

The new Star Wars title, The Last Jedi, has triggered a huge discussion among the fans, mainly because of the multiple meanings that it could carry. Although it is possible that in the title Jedi is used as plural, it’s almost a certainty that the title refers to Luke Skywalker himself. During “Return of the Jedi” Yoda tells Luke: “When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be.” Also the opening crawl of “The Force Awakens” states that: “The First Order will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed”. Later in the movie Supreme Leader Snoke says: “The droid will soon be delivered to the Resistance, leading them to the last Jedi. If Skywalker returns the new Jedi will rise”. So what could this title possibly mean? Will there be more Jedi after Luke? What will become of Rey. Is there a new breed of Jedi that will rise? Hit the jump for our thoughts on that matter.



The following quotes have been directly taken from our staff discussion in The Cantina forum:



I wonder if the title points to the dynamic between Rey and Luke that Rian has mentioned.

I think Luke probably wants to let the Jedi die out once and for all, since they always seem to produce a dark-sider who cocks the whole thing up. Ben got turned, and he destroyed the entire Jedi academy, and Luke went into hiding – probably as his way of breaking the cycle once and for all.

Rey, on the other hand, has begun to embrace her abilities rather than hiding from them, and she wants Luke to train her. I wonder if she might end up having to convince him to do so.

In other words, Luke’s intention is to be the last Jedi and to allow the Jedi to die with him. Rey comes along and upends that whole plan, and ultimately she becomes the last of the Jedi (and this of course brings up the possibility that Luke may not survive until Episode IX.)



While I might agree with that in some context, Luke knows the importance of the Jedi (whether he likes it or not) and by now, knows the history of the Jedi and Sith. I would be inclined to follow you brother, but have the notion that if for nothing else, being the last leaves him with a moral obligation that he’s struggling with….you know, not to let the entire galaxy fall to the dark side.



I’ve been thinking about that too, and you may very well be right.

But I can’t get around the fact that when Luke lost Ben to the dark side, and Ben slaughtered all of the rest of Luke’s students, Luke didn’t go after him to try to meet a moral obligation to not let the galaxy fall to the dark side.

He hid himself away on a planet that nobody could find. For years, apparently.

This wasn’t out of fear for his life. Luke moved beyond that long ago.

It also doesn’t seem like it was so that he could bide his time waiting for the right moment to take down Snoke and company. Otherwise, the sudden destruction of billions of lives on Hosnian Prime would have brought him out of exile.

What exactly does that leave, other than Luke going into permanent exile with the intent of letting the Jedi die with him?

Аnother possibility.

Luke agrees to train Rey in the ways of the Force… but not as a Jedi.

Perhaps in his solitude, Luke has come to realize that the Jedi rejection of emotion inevitably creates its own blowback, with the reflexive response to “no emotion” being the concentration of negative emotion in those who fall to the dark side. Jedi are never taught to process their emotions – only to basically ignore them by letting them go. How is that NOT going to result in failed Jedi having no capacity for modulating their emotions and simply diving straight into them as a source of power?

In this sense, if Luke trains Rey to incorporate her emotional life into her life as a Force user, rather than simply denying her emotions, Luke would by definition be the last Jedi.



However, I think that like Ben in IV, Luke felt the cries of the Hosnian’s, and knows what must be done, probably thinking “blast, do I have to leave the house TODAY?!?” When Rey shows up, it confirms to him that he has to get dressed and go out, because the Force has brought her to him.

I think that Luke’s apparent failings and self-loathing on Ahch-To is probably what he had in mind…to just stay there (like you said), and was just hoping that Ben and Snoke would accidentally blow themselves up playing with matches in the shed and he wouldn’t have to intervene….but now he knows…..and he’s going to get on his cell and call the rest of his Jedi-posse to go kick some ass. Well, maybe not EXACTLY not like that….



Well, see, to me this is the logical assumption to make. I just suspect that Rian intends to turn conventional wisdom on its ear as far as that goes. Just like I’d have never pictured Rebel agents executing their own contacts the way Cassian did in Rogue One, I think we’ll probably see a version of Luke that’s not quite what we’re expecting too.

Then again, that look we saw from him at the end of TFA could very well be “Damn… now I’ve gotta go put pants on and pack a friggin’ sammich for the road.”
Hard Case

I think he has been seeking answers. And when he finds what he is looking for – at that moment – he will act. Never forget – a wizard is never late, nor is he early – he arrives precisely when he means to (I may be getting my franchises mixed up here, but you get what I’m saying ).



I do indeed get what you’re saying, and you may be absolutely correct.

But what answers would he be seeking? New powers? Why he lost Ben to the dark side? What Snoke actually is?

Once the First Order began destroying planets, IMHO that would have prompted Luke to at least prepare for a return from his exile. But when Rey showed up, the look on Luke’s face was basically, “Aw, sh*t…” He didn’t seem particularly thrilled, and that thousand-yard stare of his conveyed something very different from “The Force has spoken – It’s time.”

I really don’t get the impression that he planned on returning at all. It seems odd, because as you say, there’s an implied moral responsibility to ensure that the dark side doesn’t consume the galaxy. And yet… J.J. and Mark made some very specific choices with that final TFA scene that appears to paint a rather different picture.


All kidding aside, though, I’m starting to really get jazzed about what’s coming this December. It sounds as though Rian is working on a deeper story for the new characters, and probably one that will change some of our fundamental assumptions about classic characters like Luke.

My one concern is that in making TFA “Han’s story”, to the extent that the ST films focus on classic characters, and the growing likelihood that Rian may be making TLJ “Luke’s story” in that same sense… perhaps they had a plan to do the same with Leia for Episode IX. We’ve already heard some rumors (which I don’t know how solid they are) that Leia would have an expanded role in IX. I hope that she wasn’t the key to the eventual resolution of the ST story, because that’s going to make it mighty tricky to write her out of the movie


Hard Case

There is another. I think regardless of what happens with Luke in VIII, he will be the nostalgia man in IX as well, even if he’s a Force ghost. I’m really hoping that Ben and Leia have a meaningful scene in VIII, otherwise that will be such a tragic loss for the story. She will definitely be missed either way, but if they have a pretty good emotional scene in VIII, then I think it wouldn’t be too difficult to proceed without Leia, especially considering how far along the new characters will have been developed by then. It will be very tragic storywise if Ben and Leia never get any screen time together though. And if her character dies off screen (which sounds like it may be the way they end up going) then that could really have some big ramifications concerning Kylo Ren. It could very well push him beyond all hope of redemption, or the sudden loss of his mother followed by Luke’s appeal to the light remaining within him could be what brings him back from the brink. There are many ways they could take the story. We may not get the story that was originally intended, but I think they can still do something really compelling.

Wouldn’t it be crazy if we see a sort of reversal of Han’s death in TFA in the final act of the trilogy where Luke seems to have successfully redeemed Ben and just as a weeping Ben and Luke embrace, a green blade ignites through Ben’s torso as tears stream down the face of the last Jedi master? Luke knew that the potential for darkness in the Skywalker family was just too great. And after the atrocities committed by Ben, he decides to end it right then and there. Maybe he even stays behind to sacrifice himself to aid in Rey’s escape. Man what an ending that would be. I can hear a character in the next trilogy asking a question like this: “Did you ever hear the tragedy of the Skywalker family?”


Viral Hide

I think we the fans always try to make things more complicated than they are. While we all mention that Jedi can also be used in plural, for me there is no doubt that this title is strictly about Luke. That is mainly because of the fact that this was how Luke was called in TFA crawl, and because later Snoke said:
“The droid will soon be delivered to the Resistance, leading them to the last Jedi. if Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise.”

So while I agree that Luke is the last Jedi, that doesn’t mean that a new Jedi order won’t arise.



Additionally, which seems to be a foregone conclusion; We are going to/are seeing an evolution of the Jedi “Order” from the PT in that they were a bit full of themselves and even a bit pompus at times, and then through the OT where they had been summarily erased from existence, and finally on to the ST where (in addition to their physical existence) the Empire (and subsequently the FO) had erased them from written history to a point where they were reminiscent of King Arthur to all but those old enough to remember them…very quietly.

At this point, we’re going to see a new birth of the Jedi that will follow the original idea, but have/are going to evolve with different ideals and traditions.

While I follow you @Viral Hide on the idea of Luke being THE last Jedi, I feel like it’s just too damned easy to say “They’re all dead…end of story”…it’s almost an insult to the intelligence of the diehard fan. There were THOUSANDS of them when Order 66 was instituted, and again, it’s just too neat and clean to say they’re all dead….but they probably will…which seems like a cop-out to me.


Hard Case

This title makes so much sense. It is definitely about Luke, the last two films chronologically have even foreshadowed this title. As Viral points out Snoke’s line about “the Last Jedi”, I also remember that Yoda told Luke “…the last of the Jedi will you be.” This title is perfect. The only thing that bugs me is it totally wrecks my shorthand for Star Wars discussions. I am used to referring to Return of the Jedi as simply “Jedi”. Now I have to say the full title everytime. Darn you Rian Johnson!



(Concerning Luke killing Ben to put an end to the Skywalker line) That would be the single ballsiest move they could possibly make. And it could work too, if they set it up right. Excellent ideas there, HC!

Part of me also wonders, (and this has nothing to do with the movie title), if we might see something completely out of left field, – namely, Han appearing as a Force ghost.

This has been going around in my head ever since TFA came out, and I just can’t shake it. I know that one of the core questions that drove development of TFA was, “What is the Force and how powerful is it?” Then they came up with that title – The Force Awakens very strongly suggests the Force having its own volition. It’s own ability to consciously manipulate the world. We see plenty of indications of latent Force abilities in various characters in the movie. Not just Rey, but Finn is certainly guided by his own instincts (and can hold his own for a little bit in a lightsaber fight against a trained dark side user), Poe has that moment over Takodana where he’s taking out TIE after TIE after TIE – hell, even Han has that blind blaster shot when they emerge from the rubble of Maz’s castle.

Now, most of that could just be J.J’s indulgence in his own goofy sense of humor. OR… it could indicate that the newly awakened Force is acting through more than just trained Force users.

Assuming for a moment that the latter is the case, and TFA deliberately shows the Force acting through virtually all of our heroes regardless of their actual Force sensitivity, let’s look at that final moment between Han and Ben.

I can’t remember if it was in the “Art Of…” book or elsewhere, but I know that J.J. or somebody mentioned that the intent was to have Han selflessly sacrifice his life the way Obi Wan did in ANH. And he certainly did that, for the sake of his son. He even basically forgave Ben for killing him, through that final, gentle touch to Ben’s face just before he fell off the bridge.

If the Force isn’t acting the way we have come to expect it to, what’s to say that Han’s selfless sacrifice, at the very end of which he seems to have been in something resembling a state of peace or grace, won’t end up being enough for the Force (possibly with the help of Yoda, Obi Wan and Anakin) to do the rest and allow him to retain his identity as a Force Ghost so that he can help his son to right the wrongs he’s committed?

Yes, so far in the SW films, it’s only been Force users who have been able to assume spirit form after death. But do we know for sure that only Force users can do this? What if the Force itself has changed the rules of the game? What if it’s beginning to manifest itself through untrained individuals, since trained Force users have always ended up losing some of their number to the dark side, plunging the galaxy into darkness? What if focusing power through a handful of trained Force users has become too dangerous, and the Force makes a conscious decision to begin manifesting itself through the unconscious, instinctive acts of untrained individuals?


Hard Case

This is an interesting idea. I don’t know if you watched the latest episode of Rebels or not, but Kanan seems to imply that in some respects the ability to harness the Force is irrelevant. Hera says something to him about Sabine not “having the Force” to which Kanan responds “the Force is in all living things”. We know this already of course from revelations through dialogue from Yoda and Obi-Wan in the OT, but something about the way Kanan talked about it in this episode opened up a lot of other possibilities in my mind at least about where the Force could manifest itself. It would be interesting to see some type of game changer in the ST in regards to the Force. I don’t really want to see that with Han, but I like where you are heading with this.



I did see the last Rebels episode, and now that you mention it, it DOES tend to go along with this concept of the Force actively working through “civilians” rather than just a select few Jedi and Sith. I’m still not a huge Rebels fan, but I like it better each season and this episode was an interesting one (other than the moments where they delved back into the tired old “dysfunctional sitcom family” gag with Sabine and Ezra, of course.)

But it did line up, it seems, with what I was seeing in TFA with the Force manifesting through ordinary folks. We know from previous films that the Force is in all living things. What would be new would be if the Force began to actively manifest itself through all living things on a more consistent basis.

I can’t say that I’m crazy about the idea of Han turning up as a spirit in the next two movies, but I can see where they may have set everything up for something like that. They did seem to be very conscious of the fact that Han’s death scene reflected Obi Wan’s death scene in ANH, so who knows?

Regardless of that, I have to wonder if the change we’ll see in the Force and in the Jedi in the next two episodes might revolve around how badly it’s gone in the past for the Force to mainly favor a small elite group of trained Force users. It seems to invite abuse of power, largely because humans and their humanoid cousins are just too damned thickheaded to be able to handle that kind of power responsibly. Quoth the Force, “THIS is why we can’t have nice things”.



As you can see, we just love it when new Star Wars news drops.  It’s truly amazing when something as simple as three little words can spark the imagination and reignite the passion of the fans once again. It seems that we will have plenty to speculate about until the teaser eventually drops – and then it after that it will be a non-stop hype ride until The Last Jedi finally hits theaters on December 15th. So help us keep this discussion going.  Share your thoughts on the title in the comments below.



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Founder of SWNN, MNN and The Cantina forums.

Born on April 24, 1980.

Val Trichkov (Viral Hide)

Founder of SWNN, MNN and The Cantina forums.Born on April 24, 1980.

92 thoughts on “SWNN Staff Discusses the New ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi’ Title.

    • January 24, 2017 at 9:25 pm

      It’s also in the TFA opening crawl. Lots of speculation for no reason I think. lol

    • January 24, 2017 at 10:05 pm

      So…you work for Lucasfilm?

    • January 24, 2017 at 11:31 pm

      Do you have access to insider info? If so, can you tell us when is the trailer coming?

    • January 25, 2017 at 8:01 pm

      I like the way “The Last Jedi” has 13 letters and starts with TSH too.

  • January 24, 2017 at 8:43 pm

    Dekka129 wrote:

    “I think Luke probably wants to let the Jedi die out once and for all, since they always seem to produce a dark-sider who cocks the whole thing up. Ben got turned, and he destroyed the entire Jedi academy, and Luke went into hiding – probably as his way of breaking the cycle once and for all.”

    If that is indeed the case, then why do you think Luke went to all the time and trouble to search out the planet Acht-to? With its deep Jedi significance, why didn’t he just find any old planet to retreat into himself on?

    We’ve heard rumours of Luke spending his time meditating, and the return of Yoda. I get the feeling that Luke is on that planet in preparation for something, and with Rian Johnson at the helm, it could be something a little more left field.

    • January 24, 2017 at 8:58 pm

      I would have to agree here, saying that Luke wanted to forsaken the Jedi by going into exile is like saying that Obi Wan and Yoda also decided to let the Jedi die out. I like to believe that Luke did the same that the two Masters and allow the Force to act in time and heed the call when needed.

      I might not be the biggest expert on the subject or whatever, but for me “killing” the Jedi Order is stupid cause the word itself has meaning across the whole Star Wars saga, movies reference to that word and the like… just seems odd to move in that direction…

      • January 24, 2017 at 10:13 pm

        And why leave a trail of breadcrumbs with the leader of the Church of the Force?

        • January 24, 2017 at 10:26 pm

          “Here is how you find me, but don’t cause I want to die alone as the last Jedi”

    • January 24, 2017 at 10:35 pm

      Not mention left behind the map with the big X …

    • January 25, 2017 at 1:04 am

      I agree, as well. My biggest issue with TFA was that Luke abandoned the galaxy. The Luke I knew would never do that. Now, if he had a plan and saw Ach-too being that plan I’m fine with that. Because, the one thing I loved about Legends era Luke(before he got stupidly powerful) was that he was essentially a mix between Yoda and Obi-wan. He had the strength, but the tactical and spiritual foresight.

      In essence, the quintessential Jedi, minus Obi-wan. I see possibly going to Ach-too to seek guidance from the planet. Possibly, enlightening himself to the deeper mysteries of the Force. As for what end, we’ll need to find out. But if true, then I can see the map to Skywalker(dumb plot point as that was) being something bigger. Perhaps, a signal to future Force Sensitives to seek him out and rebuild the Order.

    • January 25, 2017 at 6:14 pm

      I don’t buy that business about Luke willingly letting the Jedi expire. First off, the Jedi actually have a pretty good track record. Aside from the cataclysmic rise of Sidious and Vader, the Jedi seem to have had several centuries without any concerted threat to their existence. All things considered, the challenges we’ve seen the Jedi endure in the PT/OT and ST seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

      In addition, Luke letting the Jedi Order end won’t eliminate Force users from being born and growing up with these latent abilities. Even worse, it leaves them open to agents of evil; Sith or otherwise, who would welcome the exploitation of their abilities. That’s why I always saw the Jedi Order and their regimented code as both logical and critical in this galaxy. These Force-sensitive beings have incredible potential to cause damage if not raised in pretty controlled circumstances. If Force-sensitive beings are to be tolerated in the Star Wars galaxy, I see the Jedi Order as having evolved as a way to train these folks not only to do good, but also to keep them from doing bad.

      So, in terms of the narrative, I can’t see Luke leaving the galaxy open to something like this happening.

  • January 24, 2017 at 9:53 pm

    “When gone am I, the last of the jedi will YOU be.” -Yoda ROTJ If Yoda says Luke is the last jedi, he’s the last jedi.

    • January 24, 2017 at 10:27 pm

      Yoda is not omniscient.

      • January 25, 2017 at 12:52 am

        You have your nerdy theories and I have mine.

        • January 25, 2017 at 1:43 am

          Mine is not a theory, but a fact.

          • January 25, 2017 at 2:30 am

            Are you SuperShadow?

          • January 25, 2017 at 3:20 am

            No, just someone that recognizes that Yoda is a mortal being who sometimes doesn’t know everything.

          • January 25, 2017 at 3:26 am

            Good for you and your SW theories. My theory differs from yours. I’ll go with what Yoda says.

          • January 25, 2017 at 4:52 am

            Again, not a theory.

            Yoda (especially during the prequels) was wrong a few times. And he thought Vader could not be turned, so wrong again.

            Not omniscient.

  • January 24, 2017 at 9:55 pm

    The thing I always found odd about the whole balance to the force thing is that killing the Sith and leaving the Jedi in the galaxy isn’t exactly a balance. Its one side beating the other side. When Luke defeated the Emperor and Vader there was no balance because the Jedi were in charge again. A balance means an equal amount and therefore I think the Jedi got the prophecy all wrong. Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the force and I think the prophecy really meant no more Jedi or Sith in the galaxy and the force could finally be at balance. Perhaps the prophecy end goal of the Skywalker family is to see the good/evil sides of the force finally cease to exist and just become the force. Luke and Anakin broke the balance by trying to establish the Jedi/Sith as those in power.

    • January 24, 2017 at 10:26 pm

      It’s balance if you consider the dark side an unnatural corruption.

      The prophecy is vague so we don’t know.

      • January 24, 2017 at 11:56 pm

        Exactly. It’s a matter of balance in the same respect that curing somebody of cancer brings their body back into balance.

        The idea that bringing the Force into balance requires an equal number of Jedi and Sith is more or less the same thing as assuming that the human body is only in balance if it is composed of equal parts healthy and cancerous cells.

        • January 25, 2017 at 12:07 am

          Is it really about the Jedi and Sith balance though. Consider Qui-Gon Jinn, he was the first Jedi to be in tune (or maybe in balance) with the force that he could retain his identity within the force.

          I believe the Sith/or users of the dark side are a corruption, but that the Jedi were out of balance as well. Think of the Jedi as the Templars of the RW, who began as Knights protecting the pilgrims and then becoming political and powerful, with an agenda of their own.

          The Jedi Order being destroyed in the PT and then the Sith in RotJ would of brought the force into balance. However, those that are able to use the force will always be susceptible to corruption.

        • January 25, 2017 at 1:41 am

          I think the prophecy was misread and that the Grey are the balance required. No Sith and no Jedi.

        • January 25, 2017 at 1:47 am

          Bingo. Some still think it means equal parts light side and dark side. Why would the Jedi Council have wanted the force to be “in balance” if that meant living with Sith everywhere?
          Balance means living in balance, without conflict or animosity.

      • January 25, 2017 at 12:59 am

        Honestly, I have a feeling that that Rian will tackle the prophecy. He did say he wanted to make a film that connected to not just the ST, but the entire saga. Maybe, Rey will be that reincarnation of the Chosen one or the First Jedi. Someone who will bring balance to the Force?

        A part of me is hesitant as it kind of defeats Anakin’s role(even though his characterization wasn’t that much), but really I expect to see this idea of the prophecy and balance be acknowledged. Rian Johnson loves tackling large concepts like that and making you think.

        Without being in your face or pretentious. Rather, the ideas are tied into the characterization of said characters.

        • January 25, 2017 at 1:43 am


    • January 24, 2017 at 11:37 pm

      The Jedi Order lost their way though, becoming to much of a political force with their own agenda. In RW comparisons you could say like the Templars, who originally were there to guard pilgrims. The Jedi had became blind by their own arrogance, out of balance with the force.

  • January 24, 2017 at 10:03 pm

    I like where the discussion is headed at the end there. I really think the new canon is trying to make it clear that the Force can be used by anyone. It’s not an exclusive club to people with a “high enough” midichlorian count or some such. I think the OT made no qualifications on who could use the Force. It was more a matter of faith, IMO.

    • January 24, 2017 at 10:26 pm

      No, they say it b/c they believe in the Jedi and justice and freedom.

      It’s not a matter of faith, it’s a matter of if you can use it. But the Jedi might not factor in as much.

      • January 24, 2017 at 11:11 pm

        Disagree. “May the Force be with you” sounds very much like “God be with you.” I think they come from the same place. It’s clear that at least some in the Empire don’t even believe in the Force (e.g. Motti), and that many laypeople don’t either (e.g. Han). The Force is clearly working through Chirrut, even though he’s ostensibly not “Force-sensitive”. I think the new canon is trying to get away from the idea of innate Force-sensitivity and move more toward faith-dependent Force-sensitivity.

        • January 25, 2017 at 1:44 am

          Yeah, that’s where Lucas got it from: “Peace be with you”.

          But the people of the Rebellion use it as a call against the Empire b/c the Jedi were wiped out and they respect the Jedi’s championing of freedom.

  • January 24, 2017 at 10:34 pm

    I really don’t like the idea of Han coming back as a Force Ghost. If I remember correctly, Yoda had to train Obi-Wan how to do that after Qui-Gon somewhat figured it out? (we never see Qui-Gon as a ghost, just hear his voice).

    The idea that normal civilians can tap into the force sporadically in times of stress/need? I think that works well. Would be an interesting side bar for Finn/Poe

    I will say, I’m very interested to see which force ghosts we see in TLJ. Yoda? Obi-Wan? Anakin/Vader? Qui-Gon?

    • January 24, 2017 at 11:50 pm

      I don’t particularly like it either, and I actually hope that this isn’t the way they’re going.

      But I also don’t think we’re necessarily going to see the exact same version of the Force that we’ve always seen either. As I said, between the title “The Force Awakens” and the fact that throughout the movie we appear to see the Force actively manifesting itself through more than just an elite few Jedi, I don’t think we should necessarily expect to see the Force as the passive tool of trained Force users that it’s always been up to now.

      I remember before the PT, most of us assumed that retaining one’s identity in ghost form was just something that Jedi did, and that dark siders like Vader did not. Then, the PT came along and suddenly the ghost form thing was something that only a FEW Jedi could do.

      If we factor in a version of the Force that has its own volition, who’s to say that the next assumption to go will be that nobody but Jedi can do the ghost thing. Anakin didn’t become a ghost by the same method used by Obi Wan and Yoda – he didn’t physically vanish when he died. But he somehow turned up beside Obi Wan and Yoda at the end of ROTJ anyway. Did he get a hand from Obi Wan and/or Yoda? Did he get a hand from the Force itself? We don’t know. But if he can become a ghost without having learned the technique that Qui Gon supposedly taught to Obi Wan and Yoda, then IMHO all bets are off as far as who else might be able to retain their identity that way after death.

      Again, I really am not particularly hoping that we do see or hear Han as a ghost in the next two ST films. But so far it seems like they’re setting things up to where something like that might be possible. I wouldn’t discount it, simply because it doesn’t reflect what we currently think we know about the Force.

      • January 25, 2017 at 12:04 am

        Good point about Anakin showing up as a Force Ghost with almost no explanation. That definitely gives the writers the liberty to adjust the parameters of a Force Ghost almost however they want to.

        I do like the idea of the Force as a living “force” (lol) and that the characters and the audience learn more about it as the story continues.

        It will be interesting to see how this story advances the mythology of the Force because it seems like this was one of the main focal points of the writers heading into the ST. Also with how much our knowledge of the Force expanded from ESB because of Yoda, perhaps this is something the writers are looking to double down on but now from Luke’s perspective after a lifetime of study and experiences.

        Any thoughts on the rumors that Anakin/Vader will have an important role in the upcoming film?

        • January 25, 2017 at 12:23 am

          I actually hope that they leave Anakin out of the upcoming film altogether, along with Obi Wan and Yoda. While I thought it worked just fine to have a couple of minor whispered lines in Obi Wan’s voice in Rey’s “forceback” in TFA, my concern is that the new characters will end up in the shadow of not just the “Big Three”, but of the deceased Jedi masters as well. (Plus, I’ve got to be honest… if I never see Hayden’s portrayal of Anakin again, that’ll suit me just fine.)

          What it really comes down to, though, is the fact that it’s just going to be a far better story overall if the new characters have to work everything out for themselves, rather than relying on the counsel of Force ghosts. I see why Lucas did that with Obi Wan in the OT (He killed off Obi Wan’s character late in production in ANH and needed to keep him in the picture, and thereafter he seemed to find Obi Wan useful for exposition scenes) but I think it would be a better storytelling choice to keep Force ghosts out of the ST altogether.

          Will that actually be the case? I have no idea. Darth Vader is a marketable asset, so chances are that they will find as many opportunities as possible to wedge him into future SW films. I would hope, though, that story would come first as far as that goes.

          • January 25, 2017 at 12:54 am

            Ah yes. As much as we would like to ignore the fact that Star Wars is now big business and not just a movie saga, I’m afraid you’re probably right. Follow the money.

            I’ve heard that Rey/Poe/Finn got such great feedback after TFA that Disney is very comfortable letting them be the focal points of the films as opposed to drowning them in the shadows of the “Big 3” or whoever else from the previous films. I guess we’ll see in 10 months or so.

            I do agree with you that it will be a better story the more the writers explore those new characters and let them find themselves and explore their motivations, internal conflicts, etc. without the crutches of too many big nostalgic distractions. I’m most excited to see the development of Kylo

          • January 25, 2017 at 1:29 am

            Daisy Ridley, Oscar Isaac and John Boyega are fantastic actors. Whatever gripes I had about the story and characters, I cannot say that about their acting chops. Really, they are the best actors in SWs.

            And I hope we actually get to see them together and going off on an adventure. A big criticism I have about TFA was how it shafted Poe Dameron. It’s Oscar Isaac. Yeah, he was in the beginning, but it was clear that Abrams in his “infinite” wisdom wanted to kill him off. Oscar Isaac, rightfully so protested.

            Because, that would have been stupid. I mean had Abrams not seen Ex-Machina or Llewyn Davis. Plus, I doubt many would have griped about Rey, piloting. Especially, given Poe said he could plot anything.

            And plus, he could have been the next generation Han Solo. And given the Poe comic(really good, BTW) and Shattered Empire with his folks; I want to see more of them.

            So overall, I agree. These actors need to be able to define their roles, without the shadows of the OT Trinity.

          • January 25, 2017 at 8:06 pm

            Agreed about the new actors, whatever shortfalls TFA had for me, the acting choices were not a problem. One thing that isnt being talked about here, and why I think using force ghosts is going to be acceptable in VIII and even IX is that Kennedy has basically admitted to a X, XI and XII. So the new characters will have tons of time to do their own thing and have their own stories. Adding in some Vader/Yoda/ Obi One / right now in the story line is not going to hurt anything and its good marketing and also probably necessary to bring all the canon together in a more defined way.

          • January 25, 2017 at 2:39 am

            Well a lot of rumors point to both Yoda and Obi-Wan appearing in The Last Jedi, from a Yoda puppet being reported on the set, or at least being mentioned off hand to not be available for some event due to being elsewhere, to the statement made not too long ago that the reason we haven’t heard about a solo Obi-Wan film being greenlit is that Obi-Wan is being used in the ST and so until that story is told the character won’t be freed up for a solo live action film.

      • January 25, 2017 at 2:46 am

        It is possible that we could find out in ancillary material how Anakin was able to become a force ghost. We know that at one point, mentioned in ROTS and expanded upon in legends, that Palpatine and Vader were looking for the key to immortality. In the new canon only ROTS counts and it could be that Palpatine’s promise to find immortality become less of a motivator/concern for Vader after Padme died. But it could be that we find out that they continued to pursue this quest throughout the tenure of the Empire. If it’s still canon that Qui-Gon learned to do this from the Guardians of the Whills, perhaps Vader and Palpatine learned of it as well, but discarded it due to it not allowing them to remain physically present in the universe. All conjecture obviously and based off of a few scraps of information here and there that may no longer even be valid.

    • January 25, 2017 at 2:49 am

      I don’t think we will ever see Han as a force ghost. I do think it’s possible that we could see him again in a recorded message, maybe on BB-8 maybe on the Falcon, for Luke regarding Rey, especially if Han does know who Rey is.

    • January 26, 2017 at 12:04 pm

      There is no way. Because is wasn’t a Jedi. Not even force-sensitive.

      We’ll never see Han again. And that is okay.
      Harrison Ford wanted to die in EP. VI anyway.

  • January 24, 2017 at 11:38 pm

    Lots of interesting points here. I’d love to think I knew where Episode VIII is going but really whatever Luke says to Rey at the start of the movie is really going to dictate where the movie goes from there.

    • January 25, 2017 at 2:14 am

      Absolutely! All we have now is not-particularly-enthused visible reaction from Luke at the end of TFA. What was that exchange like once one of them spoke up? That’ll tell us a whole hell of a lot, not just about what comes next, but what came before too.

  • January 25, 2017 at 12:55 am

    Excellent discussion. As for the title, I love it. But I get why people are hung up in the context of ROTJ. Really, my biggest gripe so far with the ST is that it essentially hit the reset button. No new Jedi Order, government or anything. Just a bit of a repeat. Now, I’ll give Rian Johnson the benefit of the doubt, as knowing how talented he is; he is going to try to make this conflict not an exact copy of the OT. Much like this movie.

    But really, TFA to me left a very bitter/ nonexistent taste. Not to say I’m not excited about Episode Eight. When one of your favorite directors of all time is directing it, you’d be down for something. But really,we need something to shake up this franchise.

    And Rian is just the guy. One thing I love about Rian’s work is that he’s not afraid to put his characters through hell. Part of good story-telling is having characters endure conflict. This is caused by a problem. And it is the question of this problem, plus the character’s decisions to which a character arc is formed.

    The idea of a darker sequel in the case of Rian Johnson works, because Rian isn’t afraid to explore big, thought-provoking ideas. Just watch Looper. I’ll admit the Time travel aspect left a lot to wonder, but the existential crisis of the main character and the idea of whether or not things are pre-determined in the future is great.

    As for how this relates to SWs, what if Rian does this kind of thing with the Jedi. We know the Jedi and the light side from the OT. We know how dogmatic the PT era Jedi were? Same with the Sith/dark side. What if Luke is struggling with the idea of how to bring balance to these elements?

    Because, a thing I have been noticing in the new canon, namely Rebels, is that they are defining what it means to be a Jedi. And to me, I can see this being a crux of Luke’s arc. Us seeing the Luke Skywalker from back then, leading the temple, most likely trying to follow Yoda’s advice and failing.

    And the Luke now; someone who clearly wants to stop the darkness, but most likely not the same way. And maybe, that leads to Luke training Rey differently as a Grey Jedi or something like that. Someone clearly aligned with the Light side of the Force, BUT isn’t bogged down my dogmatic Jedi philosophy.

    A moderate viewpoint, to get religious. And assuming this ties into Rey’s backstory(which I’m certain it will), it will be interesting to see how she reacts to this. Overall, to everyone still doubtful let me be clear; expect something crazy for Episode Eight. Whether it is good or bad, we’ll need to wait and see.

    • January 25, 2017 at 1:04 am

      TFA was a bit of a disappointment for me as well just because of the recycled plotline. The characterization, i thought, was great. I really liked Looper also – which is good new for TLJ.

      I think you (and above) have hit on a really interesting way for Luke to reconcile why the “Jedi Way” so to speak, keeps failing and to find a better way to find peace and balance in the galaxy. It will be interesting to see how Kylo (not a sith, they made sure this was clear) and Rey (not yet a Jedi just Force-sensitive) are developed in TLJ

      • January 25, 2017 at 1:13 am

        Agreed. TFA felt like a TV plot. TLJ, feels like we’re now going to get into the meat of the story. I’ll see how I feel about TFA after TLJ.

        The reason why I believe we are going to see a shift in what it means to be a Jedi is simply because of what information we have. We’re going to the planet of the First Jedi temple. You don’t put that in they without it being a big deal.

        And we’re going to see hopefully, Luke’s order in a flashback. So we’re seeing the Jedi in the distant past, the Jedi in the past, and the Jedi in the present(Luke). Why go through all of that history unless Rian wanted to twist the meaning of the Jedi into something. And I really do think we are going to see this in the form of the grey Jedi.

        • January 25, 2017 at 1:20 am

          Pablo Hidalgo (LucasFilm story group) was pretty clear that there are no “grey” jedi but I think your idea is correct; just incorrect with the name. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were no more “Jedi” but rather a whole new order of Force users … maybe more inclusive than the Jedi Order was and less concerned about emotions and more concerned about to what ends those emotions are used? Just guesswork at this point

          • January 25, 2017 at 1:36 am

            I’m with you. There’s too many indicators that a middle ground will be found.

            We have early concept art of Rey with a double bladed saber (red and blue), which similar imagery is used when Kylo and Rey wrestle toward the end of their battle (one saber up, one down, like a double bladed). The simple answer is just light and dark opposing, but that shot could be forshadowing.

            We have the Bendu in Rebels, who is in the middle and we have Kylo Ren, who is the perfect embodiment of light and dark.

            If Luke discovered something in the Temple, then maybe it has something do do with that — A new way to balance the force?

            All speculation of course 🙂 It’s tough to picture for kids and losing the Jedi name is stupid, so not sure what the plan is.

          • January 25, 2017 at 1:41 am

            Totally agree that losing the name “jedi” would be bad for Star Wars. I’m guessing they find a loophole for that.

            Good point about Bendu, Kylo (not a sith), Ahsoka (“i’m no jedi”), Kanan (says he’s not a true jedi because never finished his training), and… I’m sure there are more i’m missing but the point remains that Lucasfilm is setting up this “middle ground” idea

          • January 25, 2017 at 2:11 am

            Oh, the Story group and their attempts to obfuscate parts of Legends. Ironic, given they co-opt a lot of stuff from legends, like Thrawn, Mandalorian Wars etc. Nothing against you, because that is correct.

            But still; it is a bit disappointing Grey jedi aren’t a thing. Regardless, I agree the Jedi will change. Kind of like the role of the Avatar changed during the Legend of Korra.

            I’m expecting the Jedi will reform, and actually be stronger and as you said be able to accept/reign in their emotions. And that is awesome. Because, I’ll never forget Jolee Bindo’s speech in KOTOR when speaking about the Dark side. Specifically, where he say Love does NOT turn a person to the darkside; passion does.

          • January 25, 2017 at 2:16 am

            Dang, nice KOTOR reference. That was a great game in its day. BUt agreed about the role of the Jedi

          • January 25, 2017 at 4:52 am

            That was Lucas who did that, not the Story Group

    • January 25, 2017 at 7:54 pm

      Brilliant post, one of the best ive ever read on this site. Bravo. I also think Luke is going to reconcile what it means to be a Jedi. Rey is going to be trained as someone who can use the force, but not as a traditional Jedi with all the restrictions that come with it. Honestly we may even see him attempt to allow her to use the dark side as well as the light side. Maybe he sees a philosophical flaw in the stringent belief Yoda had that “once you start down the dark path forever will it consume you.”

      I also am a huge fan of Rian, his ability to add depth to his characters and build a story that is gripping without the need for lots of outside influences is amazing. I am however very very concerned in that sometime after he originally wrote VIII Kennedy and one of her advisers flew out to meet with Rian to discuss changes to the plot. I have a very bad feeling they influenced him to ‘lighten’ the story up and make it more mainstream.

      • January 26, 2017 at 4:14 am

        Thank you. I very much appreciate it. I agree that kennedy and company may stand in Rian’s way. Given what happened with TFA, that alone makes me nervous. Because, I maybe bold; Rian Johnson might be the BEST director for this franchise since Irwin Kershner. Ironically, both are similiar in that they do a lot of character driven storylines and are low key.

        Rian, sure did a blockbuster in Looper, but really aside from that he wasn’t know, until he was attached to SWs. But on the flip side, I can see Rian going a bit overboard. As much as I hate to admit it; SWs is aimed at families.

        It doesn’t mean it cannot be dark, but in the Saga films, there will always be that widespread appeal. And as such there are tradeoffs. But I doubt they will hinder Rian that much.

        As for your idea, I’d love to see that. Reminds me exactly of Kyle Katarn and his philosophy over Light side and Dark side powers. Intent. I can see Luke taking that position being much older. It would be especially interesting when you contrast Luke who in the flashbacks will probably be a lot younger and less experienced.

        My only gripe is that I wished we could have seen Luke running the temple in the ST. That would have been the best progression and I doubt anyone would have complianed. It wasn’t like the PT era Jedi were going to be around.

        It was Luke’s show.

  • January 25, 2017 at 1:39 am

    I agree with Dekka, the title “The Last Jedi” refers to Luke and implies that the Jedi order, as we have come to know it, which he tried to reconstruct, is over. The light side of the force will take on a different form. It apparently already has form the dark side.
    If so, the possibilities here for Luke and Rey are awesome.

    • January 25, 2017 at 7:47 pm

      Agreed John. I think you hit it righto on the head (as did Dekka). The Jedi Order is done; Lukes failure to bring about a new batch of Jedi and the failures of the original Jedi order during Episode III have taught him that the Force needs to change and having a Jedi Order is not part of the future.

    • January 28, 2017 at 5:35 pm

      I didn’t think much of the title when I first hear it but I really like this idea, and it makes me think more of it. It’s bothered me that the PT kept talking about Anakin being the chosen one and bringing balance to the force. Not that I think that we should use the PT for reference on a lot of aspects of Star Wars but doesn’t balance mean equal left and right. So if you destroy all Sith then the force is unbalanced towards the Jedi. And if all Jedi are destroyed it’s unbalanced towards the Sith. I’ve seen the theory that Rey may turn to the darkside. People talked about how it looked as if she was going to kill Kylo before the crater opened up to separate them. Couldn’t it be that, as John says above, that the Jedi order as we know it will end and there will truly be a balance in the force starting with Rey and a new group, both light and dark? Who knows, maybe Rey’s parents are Luke and a woman strong in the dark side (not sure I btelieve this but just train of thought).

      Also wanted to mention my reaction to people saying that Luke has to be last jedi referred to in the title. While I think that’s a possibility (and perhaps a probability) basing your theory on what Yoda said to Luke in Jedi (Return of that is) and the opening crawl in FA just doesn’t seem to hold for me. We know that between ROTJ and FA Luke was trying to train a new group of Jedi. He knew (knows) that just because he’s the last currently doesn’t mean he’s the last ever. And yes, Yoda did say “the last jedi will you be.” But he didn’t say ever be. I actually think there’s an implication in what he says to Luke that it’s his responsibility to not let the Jedi die out and he needs to make sure the order carries on.

  • January 25, 2017 at 3:07 am

    If Luke dies in Ep 8, WE RIOT. Forget Trump. Forget the Women’s March.


  • January 25, 2017 at 4:20 am

    I feel that “The Last Jedi” is too similar to The Force Awakens as far as structure goes. However they could have named Epi. 8 “Last of the Jedi” instead. (similar to “Attack of the Clones” structure) But then that sounds similar to “Return of the Jedi”. LOL.

  • January 25, 2017 at 6:12 am

    Luke turning Kylo/Ben back would make Han’s death irrelevant. His killing of his father was what he “needed to do” to seal the deal on the journey he started with Snoke.

    • January 25, 2017 at 6:50 am

      See I feel like luke turning Ben back is the only thing that could make han’s death relevant. If Kylo stays evil then leia was just an idiot sending her husband to his death in a futile tempt to reach someone too far gone – but TFA novel implies that killing his father made his feel weakened. If han’s legacy and memory saves his son and the galaxy, then his death was not in vain. If he truly is the monster snoke wants him to be then Han’s death is more of a tragedy, someone who died in vein believing in the goodness of his son. Not saying either one is a bad story, but I like the idea of redemption better. I’d like to see Kylo have to LIVE with what he’s done as he struggles to rebuild trust rather than see him have a quick and painless death by lightsaber.

      • January 25, 2017 at 3:43 pm

        Kylo killing Han was about him becoming a full-fledged villain. He is not on the path to redemption.

        • January 25, 2017 at 4:44 pm

          I agree. I don’t think we should see Ben redeemed. Darth Vader/Anakin was redeemed, but I think that needs to remain an anomaly. It gives what Luke did for his father some serious gravitas; not simply the first of many instances where a bad guy was convinced to ditch his evil ways and change sides.

          I’ve said it before, but killing Han was critical in the creation of this villain. As an audience, we have to take Kylo Ren seriously. Since it would have come off really, really hokey if they had attempted to outdo Vader in terms of a threatening and powerful villain, they came up with a character who essentially wants to be Vader, but is painfully aware that he falls far short of that mark. Abrams cheated here, and it worked out wonderfully. That being said, the movie still needs a villain who is going to be taken seriously; both by the characters and by the audience. So, taking this guy seriously is best done through having him do something extraordinary despicable. Destroying a planet doesn’t work by itself. We don’t “know” anyone on that planet. Killing Solo sure fits that bill. That’s something that we’re not likely to forgive, even if the movie’s characters find it in themselves to do so. As a bad guy, he’s certainly got our attention now.

          Also, if Ben were to be redeemed, what would you do with the character? He’s still guilty of taking the lives of an untold number of beings. The redemption of Vader was handled by having him die almost immediately afterward. What to do with him?

          And again, he killed Han Solo. Even if in the story he was able to be forgiven and accepted, I don’t think the audience could every really do that. We can accept Vader’s redemption because he didn’t kill anyone that we were intimately connected to. Yeah, he killed Kenobi, but that was different. Ben killed Han Solo. Han Solo! After that, it’s wishful thinking to assume that an audience can authentically embrace him as a good guy.

    • January 26, 2017 at 4:19 am

      Well Vader killed his father figure and slaughtered little kids, so….

  • January 25, 2017 at 6:14 am

    About the comment on “The Force is in All Living Things” I have a theory about how The Force works through all, without making it about midichlorians there is math involved but just to serve as analogy.
    Force Sensitivity —> Ability with the Force
    Non-Sensitive —> 0
    Force-Sensitive —> 0.01 – 0.99
    Trained Force-Sensitive —> 1.00 – 99.0
    Padawan —> 100 – 999
    √First Trial —>
    Jedi Knight —> 1,000 – 9,999
    √ Second Trial —>
    Jedi Master —> 10,000 – 99,999
    √ Final Trial—>
    One with The Force —> 100,000
    All living beings, even Sabine, can go from 0 to 100,000 in an instant because The Force runs through all things. So everyone has access.That is the reason there are mantras like May the Force be With You and I’m one with the Foce, the Force is with me. The Force is inclusive. Its just that force sensitive people can ‘modulate’ their being with one with the Force. And the real masters are able be one with the Force indefinitely as Force-ghosts.
    Luke needs a Final Trial to be one with the Force as Force-ghost. He wen to Ach-To in order to learn how to pass the Trial. I believe he was not only looking for answers and looking for certain things to happen, but he was also resisting going after Ben and Rey (because of course he knows who Rey is). In some ways he was also training. He had failed, so he needed to go inward and learn the lesson before going out again. Also, Luke is a great schemer and tactician, I bet he has some aces under his sleeve. Luke is at 99,999 with the Force and the Force went to sleep, what did you he would do?

  • January 25, 2017 at 8:33 am

    I really hope Luke and Rey are related in someway. If she is his daughter or niece than she will be extremely powerful. I can’t want to see old master Luke kicking ass on a lonely island. I also read about her defeating s sea monster to be worthy of training and there are little puffin raptor birds on the island with luke

    • January 26, 2017 at 9:43 pm

      I think she’s a lab baby, created by Imperial scientists in a secret lab on Jaaku. They used DNA from Luke’s hand (it and his saber were recovered from Bespin when the Imperials investigated things after Cloud City was evacuated). The Emperor wanted to resume the Clonetrooper technology but to create clones strong with the Force.

      This would explain everything at once: why Rey is on Jaaku. How Rey is so powerful with the Force. Why Luke’s saber went to her. How she could be Luke’s “daughter” though she isn’t directly. (So when JJ Abrams inferred that she doesn’t have parents — well, technically, that’s kinda true then.) It could also explain why the dying Empire retreated to Jaaku and had their last stand there.

      • February 1, 2017 at 11:49 pm

        That’s a very interesting theory I never thought of that. If she is a clone baby that would definitely change the Skywalker bloodline

  • January 25, 2017 at 2:22 pm

    This would have made more sense for IX that way we could have had the Revenge, Return, Last symmetary that refer to force users.

    I’m also not crazy about how we now have two films nicknamed Jedi. Ex: Phantom, Clones, Sith, Hope, Empire, Jedi, Force, and now Jedi again.

    Just going to call it 8/VIII instead.

    • January 25, 2017 at 2:24 pm

      Two force related titles in a row is pretty damn redundant too. Even the PT had them beat creatively there.

      I blame Abrams for this who also came up with such clunky ones as Into Darkness and Beyond for Trek.

    • January 25, 2017 at 3:42 pm

      Weird thing to care about.

    • January 25, 2017 at 4:15 pm

      “This would have made more sense for IX that way we could have had the Revenge, Return, Last symmetary that refer to force users.”

      I’m not sure what symmetry exists there. Please explain.

      PS: I’m not busting your chops here, I’m legitimately not catching the symmetry you’re seeing.

      • January 26, 2017 at 11:57 am

        I think he refers to the word Jedi in the title…

      • January 29, 2017 at 9:41 pm

        The Sith get their revenge, The Jedi return, and then the Jedi are few again. They all refer to force users. There is none with The Last Jedi and Attack Of The Clones or The Empire Strikes Back.

        I hope IX is a about a new sect of force users then it can sort of be salvaged title-wise.

        • January 30, 2017 at 3:27 am

          Ah. See, I’m looking at all of this grammatically. Return and Revenge are the subjects of the first two titles. Jedi is the subject of The Last Jedi. Return and Revenge are events. Jedi is a being. So…it’s all out of whack in that regard.

          But, I’m an English teacher so that’s the sort of thing I tend to focus on.

    • January 25, 2017 at 5:13 pm

      Or just use the acronyms like most everyone else does.

    • January 26, 2017 at 7:46 am

      There will be symmetry. Episode VII is the new middle chapter. There will be two trilogies after Episode VII. Those two new trilogies are a mirror to the first ones. So, Episode VIII is mirror to Episode VI, and Episode IX will be a mirror to Episode V, and so on, until Episode XIII is mirror to Episode I.

      • January 26, 2017 at 11:57 am

        Never heard of that. There are 3 trilogies: Ep. 1-9.

        Why should 9 mirror 5 and 8 mirror 6. That makes no sense at all.

        Did you make that up? Hope?
        Source please. At least for 13 episodes…

        • January 26, 2017 at 9:03 pm

          No source, just speculation. Yes, they have announced only three movies, ending in episode 9. They won’t stop there. We can agree on that.

      • January 29, 2017 at 9:43 pm

        I think they will be more into the spinoffs then which will be less constricting creatively.

        • February 1, 2017 at 3:44 am

          In terms of revenue, no spinoff will ever match an episode from the saga. 12 or 13 movies might be too few for the Disney stockholders…

  • January 25, 2017 at 5:47 pm

    Promoting non force sensitives to force sensitives because the balance of the force is in danger doesn’t make sense to me. If the force could do that then why not simply demote a handful of bad force users rather than upgrade hundreds non forceusers?

  • January 25, 2017 at 7:54 pm

    Good God, what a load of waffle, maybe you can post this comments section for your next article.

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